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libvertaruan
Err, I'll put stuff in this thread tomorrow because I don't have time, zkajan, but I'm making it anyways so I don't forget. I have a Quran, I read it a little, and a lot of what I read seems very anti-libertarian, especially with religious tolerance.
libvertaruan
Zkajan is a muslim who also calls himself a libertarian. Granted, his religious education is not complete yet, but I want to see how he can reconcile them.

Also, reread the rules of The Duel. One on one debate; people not in the debate have the spectator thread.

Zkajan, the one verse I read that made me realize you couldn't do this was somewhere between Al-Shu'ara 142 and 160: "So Fear Allah and obey me, and obey not the bidding of those who exceed the bounds, who create disorder in the lands and do not promote order and security."

A fairly bad verse to start out with, but it was the first one I ran into, so its the first I post. And it is safe to assume that the bounds referred to would just happen to be sharia, correct?
zkajan
whoa, i've never done one of these duel things before, but sure. my first post will be relatively quick though as it's midnight, i was just about to go to bed and thought to check in on U-P real quick.

Also, as I may have previously said, my ethnicity is Bosnian muslim. However, I and my parents were raised under communism, and hence were atheists. At some point I moved from atheism to the agnistic's fence. Then earlier last year i moved from agnisticism to the "god exists" side of the fence. I decided to read up on the various religions and due to the aforementioned background started that process with the Koran and some history of Islam. At first I read really quickly, but lately I've been slacking off, heh, so I'm only about 40% through it (well, i've also been reading other books for entertainment and education, so it's not that I'm a very slow reader).

With all that said...

I personaly recognise the Kuran as a holy book. I also believe the jewish and christian texts as important and holy to some degree, though I believe both have been changed much over the times to suit the needs of the priesthood (christmas, anyone?). That's actually one of the things I like a lot about Islam, the Kuran says it's good to seek advice from an imam (priest) but it doesn't mandate it. There is no Pope equivalent, at least by original text. If in some countries it is mandated or under some sects it is then it is by design of said countries or sects. And here is where Sharia law comes in, I haven't read the collections of it, but I also believe that god is infallable, man is fallable, and the Sharia came from man. Men interpreted the Kuran, in some instances reconciled it with their native tribal (one thing Islam is agaist, tribalism) beliefs and systems, and from that came those laws. I'm not saying they're all good laws, or all bad laws, but I am saying that I myself would be interpreting from the primary source (Kuran) using my own brain than relying on what other people living 1k years ago interpreted it like.

And here is where Libertarianism mixes in with this. In several places in the Kuran, personal responsability is highly emphasized. Life gives you lemons you make lemonade as they say. And if life rewards you with threasures it's your spiritual duty to share those with those less fortunate. However nobody is to force you to it, it's your choice. I watched on PBS a couple of weeks ago some special where a girl (20-something) went to Iran and lived with a family there for a month or something, and made the documantary. A couple of times they had some political discussion, and the main argument by a lot of them was "US is evil, they f everything up for us" and one of the family (some young uni guy) was like "you know, the US dropped the bomb on Japan, and look at them. they didn't whine, they just dusted themselves off, worked hard, and are one of the most prosperous nations now" and the others just kind of ignored him/disputed it. Basicaly it's the victim syndrome as I think of it, same as with a lot of the blacks in the US (I've never met a black person who came from Africa as a refugee who was on welfare for more than a year or two as they adjusted. I met several 3rd generation welfare recipents who are black). But yeah, I think those guys missed those self-responsability parts.
The Kuran says that if you are alone and unarmed, and there are 40 bandits passing by, even if they weren't about to kill you specificaly but go kill a village or something, it's your spiritual/moral duty to fight them. Most likely they'll kill you, there is so many more of them, but you've still done the right thing, and this life pales in comparison to the next anyways.
An atheist friend of mine (who's also Bosnian) said to me when we were talking about predetermination vs. free will "how can a just god allows innocents to suffer. let a Chetnik (serb paramilitary) into Srebrenica and let him cut the throats of little children? what have those children done to deserve it". And I didn't have an answer for him at the time, but I've thought about it since, and it's free will. His problemis that if he recognises only this earthly life as the end-all-be-all ofcourse it's a disaster. But the Chetnik is going to eternal torment. And the innocent girl is going to eternal paradise. Nobody forced the Chetnik to kill her, it was his free will. God gave free will to people specificaly for such choices, with exact determination either the above would have happened and God is cruel and saddistic, or the above would not have happened. And God is loving and merciful so it's free will. Free will = personal responsability. personal responsability = libertarianism.

as to your quote:
QUOTE
"So Fear Allah and obey me, and obey not the bidding of those who exceed the bounds, who create disorder in the lands and do not promote order and security."

Allah and me in this quote are the same person, because the Koran is God's word. It is addressing the reader and telling him that He is the ultimate authority, if your local earthly ruler tells you to be unrighteous and do evil deeds you should refuse, even at cost of your life, since the righteous decision will be obeying God. It's still up to you what you do, but all choices have consequences as i already explained. As to how does one make the dermination of evil vs. good. Well, the Kuran sets some guidelines, but every situation is unique so one has to make a decision. Sometimes it's hard to see what will come from a decision, so how does one do it? Well, you act in good faith, and try for the best. Circumstances might go around you an the other outcome would have been better, but you are just human and fallable. As long as you tried to do good that's what matters on Judgement day. But you can't just do whatever you please like, and say it's good, it has to be actually thought about (i'm refering to things like the Crusades, the Inquisition, and 9/11).

But more on that tomorrow, it's almost 1 now and i really have to be in bed.
zkajan
you going to reply to some of what i said, or is the discussion over
i don't want to say more if you don't care about this topic anymore
libvertaruan
Give me time.

It doesn't have to be argued day in and day out--look at the rest of the duel threads.

But wait to say the rest until I have said something about what's here now.
zkajan
ok, will do
libvertaruan
It might be a while until I can respond to this again, as I lent my Qur'an to a friend and might not get it back until just before Summer.
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