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> OK seriously....
necrolyte
post Nov 27 2008, 07:43 AM
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http://www.amazon.com/Timewave-2013-Future...g_tdp_sv_edpp_t

QUOTE
Review
This second film by Sharron Rose has been long awaited after the sensation her first film, 2012 the Odyssey Armageddon Is Not What It Used To Be caused among New Age and metaphysical circles when released in 2006. This is definitely an adventure into the nature of time itself, with some of the world s foremost metaphysicians, sages and experts lending their wisdom. Buckle yourself in for a breathtaking ride! The experts in this film reinforce the notion of continual change, inner change and the amazing opportunities presented by the advent of the galactic alignment in December 2012. It is not the end of all time; it is the end of the Mayan calendar and the end of this age. There will be another. The message to me was prepare yourself and embrace it with love. I recommend this film as an antidote to the rather panicky offerings in the mainstream media. It s a far more common sense approach. --Jennifer Hoskins, New Dawn Magazine


OK so when is philosophy going to reclaim the term "metaphysics" from strange new-age ramblings? Whats "metaphysical" about some white "shaman" who read Mayan mythology while tripping on acid? If you search "metaphysics" on amazon.com, the first book on the list isn't Aristotle's Metaphysics..... it's "What the Bleep!?" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bleedingeyes.gif)

EDIT: I don't get it, they run around claiming that their pseudoscience is, well, science, then they claim it's metaphysics. What? If it was science, which it isn't, wouldn't it just be physics?

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Dragonspirit
post Nov 27 2008, 03:30 PM
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Modern day philosophers don't really enjoy much more prestige than your various Miss Cleos.
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necrolyte
post Nov 27 2008, 06:11 PM
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QUOTE (Dragonspirit @ Nov 27 2008, 04:30 PM) *
Modern day philosophers don't really enjoy much more prestige than your various Miss Cleos.


If that's so, it's a shame. Anyways, to some extent, I disagree. Every philosophical movement today has some heavy philosophy behind it somewhere, even neo-conservatism.
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Stimulant
post Nov 28 2008, 07:45 AM
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itt: lets be philosophers.


So man, i was thinking, suppose, like, the entire universe was one big animal. That would be pretty far out.
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necrolyte
post Nov 28 2008, 09:15 AM
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QUOTE (Stimulant @ Nov 28 2008, 08:45 AM) *
itt: lets be philosophers.


So man, i was thinking, suppose, like, the entire universe was one big animal. That would be pretty far out.

QUOTE
Prop. I.
E1:Bk.XIV:1:158 Substance {G-D} is by Nature prior to its modifications.
{EL:Bk.XIII:626, Deus sive Natura, Bk.XX:228.}

Premise 1. Substance exists and cannot be dependent on anything
else for its existence.
Prop. II.
II - VI
Bk.XIV:1:79, 81 Two substances, whose attributes are different, have
nothing in common.

Premise 2. No two substances can share an attribute.

Proof: If they share an attribute, they would be identical. Therefore
they can only be individuated by their modes. But then they would
depend on their modes for their identity. This would have the sub-
stance being dependent on its mode, in violation of premise 1.
Therefore, two substances cannot share the same attribute.
Prop. III. Things which have nothing in common cannot be one
the cause of the other.

Premise 3. A substance can only be caused by something similar
to itself (something that shares its attribute).
Prop. IV. Two or more distinct things are distinguished one from
the other, either by the difference of the attributes of
the substances, or by the difference of their modifica-
tions.

Implied is Premise 4. Substance cannot be caused.

Proof: Something can only be caused by something which
is similar to itself, in other words something that shares its
attribute. But according to premise 2, no two substances can
share an attribute. Therefore substance cannot be caused.
Prop. V. There cannot exist in the universe two or more
substances having the same nature or attribute.

Implied is Premise 5. Substance is infinite.

Proof: If substance were not infinite, it would be finite and
limited by something. But to be limited by something is to be
dependent on it. However, substance cannot be dependent
on anything else (premise 1), therefore substance is infinite.
Prop. VI. One substance cannot be produced by another
substance.

IImplied is the Conclusion: There can only be one substance.

Proof: If there were two infinite substances, they would limit
each other. But this would act as a restraint, and they would
be dependent on each other. But they cannot be dependent
on each other (premise 1), therefore there cannot be two
substances.
Prop. VII.
VII - X
Bk.XIV:1:113
E1:Bk.XIV:1:158 Existence belongs to the Nature of substance.

Prop. VIII
VIII - XI
Bk.XIV:1:139. Every substance is necessarily infinite.
Prop. IX. The more reality or being a thing has the greater the
number of its attributes.
Prop. X. Each particular attribute of the one substance must
be conceived through itself.
Prop. XI. G-D, or substance, consisting of infinite attributes, of
which each expresses eternal and infinite essentiality,
necessarily exists.
Prop. XII.
XII - XIII
Bk.XIV:1:113. No attribute of substance can be conceived from which
it would follow that substance can be divided.
Prop. XIII. Substance absolutely infinite is indivisible.
Prop. XIV.
Bk.XIV:1:214. Besides G-D no substance can be granted or
conceived.
Prop. XV.
XV - XVIII
Bk.XIV:1:296. Whatsoever is, is in G-D, and without G-D nothing can
be, or be conceived.
Prop. XVI. From the necessity of the divine nature must follow an
infinite number of things in infinite ways—that is, all
things which can fall within the sphere of infinite
intellect.
Prop. XVII. G-D acts solely by the laws of his own Nature, and is
not constrained by any one.
Prop. XVIII. G-D is the indwelling and not the transient cause of all
things.
Prop. XIX.
XIX - XXIX
Bk.XIV:1:370. G-D, and all the attributes of G-D, are eternal.
Prop. XX. The existence of G-D and his essence are one and
the same.
Prop. XXI. All things which follow from the absolute Nature of any
attribute of G-D must always exist and be infinite, or,
in other words, are eternal and infinite through the
said attribute.
Prop. XXII. Whatsoever follows from any attribute of G-D, in so far
as it is modified by a modification, which exists
necessarily and as infinite, through the said attribute,
must also exist necessarily, and as infinite.
Prop. XXIII. Every mode, which exists both necessarily and as infi-
nite, must necessarily follow either from the absolute
Nature of some attribute of G-D, or from an attribute
modified by a modification which exists necessarily,
and as infinite.
Prop. XXIV. The essence of things produced by G-D does not
involve existence.
Prop. XXV. G-D is the efficient cause not only of the existence of
things, but also of their essence.
Prop. XXVI. A thing which is conditioned to act in a particular
manner, has necessarily been thus conditioned by
G-D; and that which has not been conditioned by
G-D cannot condition itself to act.
Prop. XXVII. A thing, which has been conditioned by G-D to act in
a particular way, cannot render itself unconditioned.
Prop. XXVIII. Every individual thing, or everything which is finite and
has a conditioned existence, cannot exist or be condi-
tioned to act, unless it be conditioned for existence
and action by a cause other than itself, which also is
finite, and has a conditioned existence; and likewise
this cause cannot in its turn exist, or be conditioned to
act, unless it be conditioned for existence and action
by another cause, which also is finite, and has a con-
ditioned existence, and so on to infinity.

Baruch Spinoza


Nice attempt at reducing Pantheism to stoner ramblings though. Troll harder next time.
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Stimulant
post Nov 28 2008, 09:29 AM
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QUOTE
If they share an attribute, they would be identical.


wait what. There is an intersection between the reals and the integers: they are not identical, however.


whee, some philostoners like outline format!
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Stimulant
post Nov 28 2008, 09:32 AM
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lets continue to be philososphers in this thread.

so hey dude, i was thinking, like, what if the world, like, is just a dream? And like, our dreams are the real things. That would be pretty groovy.
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Demosthenes
post Nov 28 2008, 12:19 PM
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QUOTE (Stimulant @ Nov 28 2008, 02:32 AM) *
so hey dude, i was thinking, like, what if the world, like, is just a dream? And like, our dreams are the real things. That would be pretty groovy.

But what if we're like, part of one big dream? And like, our universe is just a dream of a creature? And if we're all just part of a dream, does that mean that anything we do actually happen?
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QWOT
post Nov 28 2008, 02:35 PM
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I want to know if people can sue all these metaphysicians for malpractice if their lives are screwed up. You know, if they go to the metaphysician and they come out with their karma all twisted and shit?
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purvisxiii
post Dec 2 2008, 12:39 AM
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Shorter Stim: thinkin about stuff using words is so gay.
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Dragonspirit
post Dec 2 2008, 08:23 AM
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QUOTE
If that's so, it's a shame. Anyways, to some extent, I disagree. Every philosophical movement today has some heavy philosophy behind it somewhere, even neo-conservatism.


Having a philosophy degree doesn't give a person any added credibility in their arguments. It is not comperable to other degrees, where their expertise actually gives their opinions added weight.
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Deus Ex Machina
post Dec 2 2008, 09:53 AM
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QUOTE (Dragonspirit @ Dec 2 2008, 01:23 AM) *
Having a philosophy degree doesn't give a person any added credibility in their arguments. It is not comperable to other degrees, where their expertise actually gives their opinions added weight.

That's silly. I would trust someone with a philosophy degree to give an account of Being and Time, while I don't think I'd give your opinions on it much credence. Understanding philosophy texts requires background and training like any other discipline.
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necrolyte
post Dec 2 2008, 12:51 PM
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QUOTE (Dragonspirit @ Dec 2 2008, 09:23 AM) *
Having a philosophy degree doesn't give a person any added credibility in their arguments. It is not comperable to other degrees, where their expertise actually gives their opinions added weight.


I think most major churches are run by people with either theology or philosophy degrees. Like this guy. These institutions understand something which you, surprisingly to me, don't; when you're actually arguing the issues seriously, it's good to have a background in people like Augustine, Plato, Aristotle, Kant, Hume, Hegel and Heidegger, as well as an effective understanding of logic, distinctions between phenomenal/noumenal, understanding of problems with subject/predicate thinking, ect. Of course, you could just prattle on like a dilettante...

Let me put it to you this way. You could come up with a definition of what it is to be a person. All these definitions would be quickly demolished by serious analysis. Let's say the "self" is some soul which God put in the baby at conception. It goes to heaven at death. Heidegger would ask you how the self in one moment of time interacts with its future and past if it is eternal and unchanging. If it's just this soul in a body, why does it experience anxiety? Why does it become involved in the temporal world if this soul is eternal? Clearly, he would say, the present being has a relationship with the past and future, but you've completely glossed over how it relates to its past and future. Kant would ask how it interacts with that external world. Can it ever absolutely know the external world? Or is there some means by which the external world becomes involved with the self, which we experience as phenomena? How can you logically equate the phenomena to this external world if all you have are these phenomena? That's a pretty simplistic summation, but I think it should suffice.

Either way, the principle point is that new-age metaphysicians do not have this advanced understanding of philosophy, and reduce it to quite simplistic terms that no serious philosopher ever would. And thus, you get oddball movements who think it's "deep" to say that the world is ending in 3 years because the Mayans said so, or think they can prove Obama is the Antichrist by applying Biblical literalism because they have little to no understanding of what's actually at stake.

Dragonspirit, do me a favour, and I'm asking you to do this out of respect for your intellect. Go to a bookstore, and buy Soren Kierkegaard's "Fear and Trembling." He was a Christian who was looking for a new interpretation of the book, so it's up your alley. When you're done, tell me if philosophers are less suited than "everyone else" at asking these questions. I'd also like to know your thoughts, as a Christian, on Soren Kierkegaard.

I'd also like to add that I think one of the reasons philosophy seems useless is that over time, the conclusions of philosophers become accepted, albeit in a corrupt form. Thus, people don't see the need to argue for the necessity of democracy in 2008 because it is seen as axiomatic, a sort of common-sense approach to accepting human rights as absolute. They completely ignore that it took several generations of philosophers to take the steps which made democracy possible.

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miltonfriedman
post Dec 2 2008, 04:04 PM
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QUOTE (Dragonspirit @ Dec 2 2008, 03:23 AM) *
Having a philosophy degree doesn't give a person any added credibility in their arguments. It is not comperable to other degrees, where their expertise actually gives their opinions added weight.

I am interested in what philosophers have to say regarding bioethics and international justice but less so from the astronomers.

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acow
post Dec 2 2008, 09:39 PM
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Wow, have to agree with DS.

A philosohpy degree might give you more credence in discussing some philosophical works, but only in the same way that having an english major might mean you're more LIKELY to be able to discuss Chaucer. You can discuss the specific material, but it doesn't neccesarily mean you have any greater insight into the themes that material covers.

Similarly, ok, with a philosophy degree, you might be more likely to be able to comment on kant and his categorical imperative, or heidegger and his notion of "people intentionally becoming"...but this gives you no more insight into philosophy neccessarily than being able to discuss or comment upon harry potter and what he did in his last adventure means you are a good writer.

A philosophy degree makes you a valid philosopher like an english/literature degree makes you a good writer. It doesn't. Typically, it turns you into a historian that specialises in particular texts or individuals.

The ideas, the arguments, the reason, the logic, typically these aren't succesfully taught in philosophy degrees, and typically, the majority of "philosophers" are quite clearly unable to use them, instead prefering to drop in the names they learnt from their textual history courses that compromised their degrees, with the assumption that the general fame surrounding these works is enough to account for their validity.

The ideas, the arguments, the reason, and the logic are just as easily able to be understood and exercised by individuals outside of philosophy degrees, and the greatest frustration of "philosophers" is that others do not hold certain texts or historical individuals with unjustified esteem like philosophers do. Most philosophers today do not do philosophy, or if they do, they do it poorly.
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miltonfriedman
post Dec 2 2008, 10:19 PM
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the same thing could be said for anyone with a bachelor degree in social sciences or liberal arts.

QUOTE
and typically, the majority of "philosophers" ...[prefer] to drop in the names they learnt from their textual history courses that compromised their degrees


oh my...

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acow
post Dec 3 2008, 05:57 AM
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QUOTE
the same thing could be said for anyone with a bachelor degree in social sciences or liberal arts.


I'd really have to call it on a case by case basis. The categories of liberal arts and social sciences here probably aren't the same as in america, and how you obtain degrees and what they include are different too...
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miltonfriedman
post Dec 3 2008, 04:10 PM
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QUOTE (acow @ Dec 3 2008, 12:57 AM) *
I'd really have to call it on a case by case basis. The categories of liberal arts and social sciences here probably aren't the same as in america, and how you obtain degrees and what they include are different too...

criminology, sociology, psychology, english, literature, philosophy, economics, ethnic/gender/black/asian/hispanic studies, etc.
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Bar-Aram
post Dec 4 2008, 01:22 AM
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QUOTE (acow @ Dec 2 2008, 10:39 PM) *
A philosophy degree makes you a valid philosopher like an english/literature degree makes you a good writer. It doesn't. Typically, it turns you into a historian that specialises in particular texts or individuals.


It depends on what you study within English. Writing classes will make you, not necessarily a 'good writer', but at least a 'better writer'. Literature on the other hand will do little to help you in that way.

It's like the difference between art and art history degrees. The former will teach you how to do, the latter will teach you about what has been done.
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necrolyte
post Dec 4 2008, 06:48 AM
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acow-no, an undergraduate degree doesn't make you a philosopher, any more than an undergraduate bio degree makes you a biologist. But if you get a PhD, you've done research and have an understanding not only of philosophers but the issues they discuss and how they do it well beyond everyone else.
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Cerian
post Dec 4 2008, 07:03 AM
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Most fields in the social sciences can be approached so as to not really get anywhere productive or so as to actually do so. For most undergraduates they most likely don't know enough to make the distinction, on the one hand, and don't care to make it, on the other.
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Telum
post Dec 4 2008, 11:33 PM
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QUOTE (necrolyte @ Dec 4 2008, 01:48 AM) *
acow-no, an undergraduate degree doesn't make you a philosopher, any more than an undergraduate bio degree makes you a biologist. But if you get a PhD, you've done research and have an understanding not only of philosophers but the issues they discuss and how they do it well beyond everyone else.


Im getting an undergraduate chemistry degree, and Im doing chemistry research. Am I not a chemist?
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Cerian
post Dec 5 2008, 12:30 AM
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That would make you a chemist, I'm pretty sure
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necrolyte
post Dec 5 2008, 07:23 AM
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QUOTE (Telum @ Dec 5 2008, 12:33 AM) *
Im getting an undergraduate chemistry degree, and Im doing chemistry research. Am I not a chemist?


If you're doing research, that's something else. I don't know what kind of research you're doing though. But I'm not sure if I'd call everyone who gets a BA in Chemistry a "Chemist".
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QWOT
post Dec 5 2008, 05:33 PM
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QUOTE (Telum @ Dec 4 2008, 03:33 PM) *
Im getting an undergraduate chemistry degree, and Im doing chemistry research. Am I not a chemist?

No, you're a lab technician. (IMG:../forums/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
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Telum
post Dec 5 2008, 05:35 PM
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QUOTE (necrolyte @ Dec 5 2008, 02:23 AM) *
If you're doing research, that's something else. I don't know what kind of research you're doing though. But I'm not sure if I'd call everyone who gets a BA in Chemistry a "Chemist".


Im doing ab initio molecular dynamics research into the nature of water solvation.

Besides that, many undergraduates do research. Most of my friends work in some lab or another. Part of the reason is that NYU throws money at us to do research, and it also looks good for grad and med school.
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Cerian
post Dec 5 2008, 09:44 PM
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If you're engaged in the praxis of a discipline, you're doing something different than just studying a discipline.
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Dragonspirit
post Dec 5 2008, 10:50 PM
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Acow pretty much summed up my views on this in a more articulate manner.

QUOTE
Im getting an undergraduate chemistry degree, and Im doing chemistry research. Am I not a chemist?


The way I see it, you are whatever you get paid to do.
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acow
post Dec 6 2008, 06:16 AM
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So if you're unemployed, you are nothing (IMG:../forums/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

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Dragonspirit
post Dec 6 2008, 07:49 AM
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Since this is a philosphy thread...

If you ARE, you can not NOT be, grasshopper (que chinese instrument and hand prayer bow). (IMG:../forums/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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