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> Religions and War
Forben
post Oct 23 2006, 03:27 PM
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and what of the integration of their system of honor? where does a religous standpoint transfer from religion to culture then to being just self-interest community domination?

<-- points to removal of all 'western' thought. for x amount of time.

<-- points to samarai and codification from basis of religion.

<-- points to korea with their original 3-5 different 'countries' which each developed their own unique cultures and their segregations to development of 'protecting' their own.

as was stated earlier, at what point does conquest of new lands and forcing their own belief on another cause the differeniation between self interest and war based on communal beliefs?



oh.. just for fun (and closer to the standard 'its the middle Easts' fault)... the babel tower, in relation to the general view that the 'only' religious war is concerning the faith of One God and how due to our folly, God created more differences in creating harmony; or maybe Kain and Able, or even the taking over of North america from the 'natives'.
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Shaidar
post Nov 14 2006, 02:26 AM
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QUOTE(Bar-Aram @ Oct 15 2006, 10:59 PM) *

Christians and jews were Dhimmis ("protected"). Which means that for the most part, once they agreed to surrender to the armies of Islam and accept Islamic rule, they had to abide by a set of rules but were otherwise reasonably tolerated (unless they rebelled, of course).

On the other hand, those who weren't "ahl-l-Kitab" ("people of the book") were treated harshly unless they converted. Sometimes, like in India, the sheer number of "polytheists" meant that the rulers had to settle for having a large number of them as their subjects, unconverted, but it was matter of realism, not tolerance.

Also, if you look at the list of rules that the jews and christians had to abide by, you'll see that many of them (especially those added on later during the crusades) are clearly intended to slowly convert them over time.

For example, a muslim woman was not allowed tomarry a non-muslim man. However, a muslim man was allowed to marry a non-muslim woman, and she would be allowed to keep her religion, but all the kids had to be raised as muslims. You can do the math and figure out where that system was meant to lead.

Also, no new churches or synagouges were allowed to be built and no repairs were to be made without permission from the authorities. I'm sure you can easily figure out where that would have lead as well had it been strictly enforced in all areas. (It's no coincidence that many of the areas where christian minorities have survived to modern days are mountain areas that were difficult for the muslim rulers to extend their authority over at all times.)
So, make no mistake about it, extension of Islamic political rule, in the long run, meant extension of the Islamic religion.

Other religions at the time would do the same things, of course, and without making distinction between religions like the muslims did. At the same time though, the Crusades into the Levant (the "Holy Land") did not (unlike those into eastern Europe) have much to do with conversions. A few minor attempts were made and were quite unsuccesful. The land was still majority (though narrowly) Christian at the time, anyway.


Of course, it didn't really work that way in the end. Although it may have been, at the start, a rather unsubtle way of saying "our way or the highway" it actually turned out to be that the punitive taxes imposed on the Dhimmi, primarily the jews, actually supported a large part of the government in many of the greatest muslim cities.
This became more pronounced after christian anti-jewish bigotry ensured a heavy influx of jewish escapee craftsmen into muslim lands. Many muslim cities actually ensured that the Dhimmi population were very well treated so they could continue to contribute.
During this time most christian countries forced their educated jewish craftsmen to kiss the rear ends of pigs, shave bald, dress like fools, or otherwise made their lives intolerable. Offhand I'd say a Jew or Christian in a muslim area was far better treated than the reverse was.

Speaking generally when it comes to religious persecution I believe it's a direct outgrowth from the very point of religion and belief. "Obviously the great Beard in the Sky wants you to kill the infidel, didn't you hear the priest?" DOES settle a LOT of questions such as "Tell me why we're suddenly at war with the neighbours we've been at peace with forever right after they just found gold on their turf?"

And after hostilities have started absolutely no one but an idiot would start going for the line of "What, you think God is with the other guys?!".

Religion is wishful thinking after all, the central thesis of which, no matter the brand of faith is "I can get out of this shit while I'm ahead, cuz I'm a good lad!".
War, on the other hand, is an insane pursuit with great numbers of people on both sides convinced they're in it for a good cause.
In war, the people who survive are likely to be the ones thinking they can get out of this shit while they're ahead because they're the good guys, not the ones hunkering down and going "Game over, man! Game OVER!!". And definitely not the ones going "Um, you mean WE are the Bad guys?"

This post has been edited by Shaidar: Nov 14 2006, 02:28 AM
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Bar-Aram
post Jan 21 2007, 04:33 AM
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QUOTE(Forben @ Oct 23 2006, 04:27 PM) *

and what of the integration of their system of honor? where does a religous standpoint transfer from religion to culture then to being just self-interest community domination?

<-- points to removal of all 'western' thought. for x amount of time.

<-- points to samarai and codification from basis of religion.

<-- points to korea with their original 3-5 different 'countries' which each developed their own unique cultures and their segregations to development of 'protecting' their own.

as was stated earlier, at what point does conquest of new lands and forcing their own belief on another cause the differeniation between self interest and war based on communal beliefs?
oh.. just for fun (and closer to the standard 'its the middle Easts' fault)... the babel tower, in relation to the general view that the 'only' religious war is concerning the faith of One God and how due to our folly, God created more differences in creating harmony; or maybe Kain and Able, or even the taking over of North america from the 'natives'.



WTF???
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Seizure Man
post Jan 21 2007, 11:51 PM
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QUOTE(necrolyte @ Oct 23 2006, 12:35 AM) *


Dude they fucking slaughtered the Canaanites (IMG:../forums/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Not forced conversion.

QUOTE(Bar-Aram @ Jan 20 2007, 11:33 PM) *



WTF???

Sometimes, it is best not to ask.

BTW, Forben, the Mongols were not muslim for a good long while, and before that they were shamanistic, though they had a good number of muslims, buddhists, and Christians in their ranks. Lots of religious diversity, and religious tolerance there. It was not a matter of religion in China and Japan.
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Bar-Aram
post Jan 22 2007, 02:23 AM
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QUOTE(libvertaruan @ Jan 22 2007, 12:51 AM) *

Sometimes, it is best not to ask.


It made no sense. I don't know what the hell he was talking about.
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Seizure Man
post Jan 22 2007, 02:52 AM
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QUOTE(Bar-Aram @ Jan 21 2007, 09:23 PM) *


It made no sense. I don't know what the hell he was talking about.
I think it had something to do with Anchorman and Dodgeball Chinese translations. Ni Hao Ryan Ma!
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garyd
post Apr 7 2007, 03:10 PM
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Actually most of the older Summerian City states were into war as much to spread their, religion as their power.

Even the Egyptians at various periods tried to spread their religion through warfare.

Chrsitianity was not spread by warfare until after Islam started to do so. You can say that's largely because they simply did not have the military power at their disposal to do so but it would be a tough case to a make.

Conversion by the Sword was until the Catholics really got going under the overweaning Leo I. Conversion by the sword was thought to be wrongheaded. Since for the Christian conversion was prior to that time an act of God.
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necrolyte
post Apr 8 2007, 03:54 AM
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QUOTE(libvertaruan @ Jan 21 2007, 11:51 PM) *

Not forced conversion.



Was still a religious war, and anyways the first forced conversions were clearly in the Roman Empire, not sure if they were anti-Christian or anti-Pagan however.
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Dragonspirit
post Apr 10 2007, 01:11 AM
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QUOTE
At least from what I remember, I havent read the bible since I was tiny.


Looks like that story keeps evolving (IMG:../forums/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)
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necrolyte
post Apr 10 2007, 01:14 AM
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QUOTE(Dragonspirit @ Apr 10 2007, 01:11 AM) *

Looks like that story keeps evolving (IMG:../forums/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

I did read some, mostly in the Old Testament, as a child, yes. However, with my parents being agnostic, it was never a part of my life, and I do not hold it above other religious texts.
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Dragonspirit
post Apr 10 2007, 07:43 AM
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Obviously.
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Dom
post Oct 22 2007, 10:24 AM
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Atheism, When they got to the war they finally found out god wasnt going to help them
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ro4444
post Yesterday, 05:15 AM
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QUOTE(garyd @ Apr 7 2007, 11:10 AM) *

Actually most of the older Summerian City states were into war as much to spread their, religion as their power.

Even the Egyptians at various periods tried to spread their religion through warfare.


Heh, only took 9 months for someone to write an intelligent response to the original question...
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bigboy
post Yesterday, 06:14 AM
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QUOTE(Bar-Aram @ Jun 28 2006, 03:42 PM) *

What religion, would you say, was the first to spread itself through war and conquest

Caveman 1: "Uhhh uhhh sun God Powerful!"
Caveman 2: "Uhh nuh ruh, lightning rules all!"
*thwak!*
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