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" width="8" height="8"/> Judas acted on Jesus' orders?, or- judas iscariot what did obey him
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xcr
post Apr 8 2006, 03:00 AM
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Ancient text paints Judas as hero, says National Geographic
Last Updated Thu, 06 Apr 2006 15:51:06 EDT
CBC News
Judas, the disciple blamed for betraying Jesus Christ to the Romans, was a hero, a newly released ancient text says.

National Geographic revealed Thursday what it calls the Gospel of Judas, a 1,700-year-old text which reverses the accepted view of the religious villain.


The 1,700-year-old script is written in Coptic, an ancient Egyptian language. (Associated Press)
"Jesus Christ asks Judas to betray him to the authorities," National Geographic said in a story about the 26-page text posted on its website.

In the Bible's New Testament Gospels, Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, and then stricken by remorse, returned the bribe and committed suicide.

But the codex, or ancient book, says Jesus asked Judas to betray him.

In the text, Jesus tells Judas: "'You will exceed all of them. For you will sacrifice the man that clothes me.'"

In that passage, "Jesus says it is necessary for someone to free him finally from his human body, and he prefers that this liberation be done by a friend rather than by an enemy," said Rodolphe Kasser, a clergyman, a former professor at the University of Geneva in Switzerland and head of the translation team.

"So he asks Judas, who is his friend, to sell him out, to betray him. It's treason to the general public, but between Jesus and Judas, it's not treachery."

The text is expected to be controversial because it contradicts nearly 2,000 years of Christian thought.

National Geographic said in the early days of Christianity there were competing doctrines, and the codex probably reflects the thinking of the Gnostics, a group that hid its writings when they were denounced by the established church.

The manuscript was mentioned around AD 180 by Bishop Irenaeus of Lyon, who called it fictitious.

"Let a vigorous debate on the significance of this fascinating ancient text begin," Rev. Donald Senior, president of the Catholic Theological Union of Chicago, told the Associated Press.

Appears real

The text, written in Coptic script, is believed to be a translation of an original Greek text written by Christians before AD 180.

It was found in Egypt in the 1970s, and an antique dealer tried to sell it several times, including to Yale University. But Yale declined, doubting its provenance.

The codex was finally transferred to the Maecenas Foundation for Ancient Art, based in Basel, Switzerland, which worked with the National Geographic Society and the Waitt Institute for Historical Discovery in California to restore, translate and publish the book.

The University of Arizona carbon-dated five tiny samples of papyrus and leather binding to between AD 220 and AD 340, and other tests backed up that conclusion.

Pages were put on display at the National Geographic Society's headquarters in Washington, which has also published Coptic and English versions of the text. The codex will later be sent to Egypt.



This is interesting... there is of coarse no way to know,nor any particular reason why it matter, but none the less...
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xcr
post Apr 8 2006, 03:01 AM
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Harry Kewell
post Apr 8 2006, 07:13 AM
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Athiests should be feeling stupid
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Benevolent
post Apr 8 2006, 11:43 AM
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QUOTE(Harry Kewell @ Apr 8 2006, 02:13 AM)
Athiests should be feeling stupid
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Why?
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necrolyte
post Apr 8 2006, 04:47 PM
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"In other news, band Judas Priest has unanimously decided to change their name to Pontius Pilate Priest."

I'd say that it would be people who read the 4 gospels literally and took them as whole truth in judging Judas would feel "stupid" not atheists. Wasn't it the council of Nicea who chose which gospels would be included? And why would this one be ignored/banned? It showed that it was part of Jesus's destiny to die, does it not?

Wasnt the "He who cast the first stone" story added much later too?
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Benevolent
post Apr 8 2006, 05:59 PM
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QUOTE
And why would this one be ignored/banned? It showed that it was part of Jesus's destiny to die, does it not?


Probably because there are possible gnostic interpretations of it.

For example, scene 1....

One day he was with his disciples in Judea, and he found them gathered together and seated in pious observance. When he [approached] his disciples, [34] gathered together and seated and offering a prayer of thanksgiving over the bread, [he] laughed.

The disciples said to [him], “Master, why are you laughing at [our] prayer of thanksgiving? We have done what is right.”

He answered and said to them, “I am not laughing at you. <You> are not doing this because of your own will but because it is through this that your god [will be] praised.”

They said, “Master, you are […] the son of our god.”

Jesus said to them, “How do you know me? Truly [I] say to you, no generation of the people that are among you will know me.”

THE DISCIPLES BECOME ANGRY

When his disciples heard this, they started getting angry and infuriated and began blaspheming against him in their hearts.

When Jesus observed their lack of [understanding, he said] to them, “Why has this agitation led you to anger? Your god who is within you and […] [35] have provoked you to anger [within] your souls. [Let] any one of you who is [strong enough] among human beings bring out the perfect human and stand before my face.”

They all said, “We have the strength.”

But their spirits did not dare to stand before [him], except for Judas Iscariot. He was able to stand before him, but he could not look him in the eyes, and he turned his face away.

Judas [said] to him, “I know who you are and where you have come from. You are from the immortal realm of Barbelo. And I am not worthy to utter the name of the one who has sent you.”

JESUS SPEAKS TO JUDAS PRIVATELY

Knowing that Judas was reflecting upon something that was exalted, Jesus said to him, “Step away from the others and I shall tell you the mysteries of the kingdom. It is possible for you to reach it, but you will grieve a great deal. [36] For someone else will replace you, in order that the twelve [disciples] may again come to completion with their god.”

Judas said to him, “When will you tell me these things, and [when] will the great day of light dawn for the generation?”

But when he said this, Jesus left him.


So, we see here that Jesus has not only told his disciples that they don't know who he is, but that NONE know who he is. Judas alone appears to be privy to a particular experience, but even he doesn't fully know it - notice that he alone can stand before Jesus, but still cannot face him.

In the next scene....

The next morning, after this happened, Jesus [appeared] to his disciples again.

They said to him, “Master, where did you go and what did you do when you left us?”

Jesus said to them, “I went to another great and holy generation.”

His disciples said to him, “Lord, what is the great generation that is superior to us and holier than us, that is not now in these realms?”


Yes, the Church really wants to say that, not only were their teachers unable to know God, but that Jesus had more than one great and holy generation.

Then, of course, there's the following:

Jesus said to them, “Those you have seen receiving the offerings at the altar—that is who you are. That is the god you serve, and you are those twelve men you have seen. The cattle you have seen brought for sacrifice are the many people you lead astray [40] before that altar. […] will stand and make use of my name in this way, and generations of the pious will remain loyal to him. After hi another man will stand there from [the fornicators], and another [will] stand there from the slayers of children, and another from those who sleep with men, and those who abstain, and the rest of the people of pollution and lawlessness and error, and those who say, ‘We are like angels’; they are the stars that bring everything to its conclusion. For to the human generations it has been said, ‘Look, God has received your sacrifice from the hands of a priest’—that is, a minister of error.

But it is the Lord, the Lord of the universe, who commands, ‘On the last day they will be put to shame.’” [41]

Jesus said [to them], “Stop sac[rificing …] which you have […] over the altar, since they are over your stars and your angels and have already come to their conclusion there. So let them be [ensnared] before you, and let them go [—about 15 lines missing—] generations […]. A baker cannot feed all creation [42] under [heaven]. And […] to them […] and […] to us and […].

Jesus said to them, “Stop struggling with me. Each of you has his own star, and every[body—about 17 lines missing—] [43] in […] who has come [… spring] for the tree […] of this aeon […] for a time […] but he has come to water God’s paradise, and the [generation] that will last, because [he] will not defile the [walk of life of] that generation, but […] for all eternity.”


What he's doing here: he's basically saying that the disciples will lead men both into sin and into depravity. Furthermore, he's saying "stop struggling with me. Each of you has his own star...." which might imply that Jesus is not claiming to be the sole reciever of revelation, or the sole path to god.

Now see the end -

Judas said to Jesus, “Look, what will those who have been baptized in your name do?”

Jesus said, “Truly I say [to you], this baptism [56] […] my name [—about nine lines missing—] to me. Truly [I] say to you, Judas, [those who] offer sacrifices to Saklas […] God [—three lines missing—] everything that is evil.

“But you will exceed all of them. For you will sacrifice the man that clothes me. Already your horn has been raised, your wrath has been kindled, your star has shown brightly, and your heart has […]. [57]

“Truly […] your last […] become [—about two and a half lines missing—], grieve [—about two lines missing—] the ruler, since he will be destroyed. And then the image of the great generation of Adam will be exalted, for prior to heaven, earth, and the angels, that generation, which is from the eternal realms, exists. Look, you have been told everything. Lift up your eyes and look at the cloud and the light within it and the stars surrounding it. The star that leads the way is your star.”

Judas lifted up his eyes and saw the luminous cloud, and he entered it. Those standing on the ground heard a voice coming from the cloud, saying, [58] […] great generation […] … image […] [—about five lines missing—].

CONCLUSION: JUDAS BETRAYS JESUS

[…] Their high priests murmured because [he] had gone into the guest room for his prayer. But some scribes were there watching carefully in order to arrest him during the prayer, for they were afraid of the people, since he was regarded by all as a prophet. They approached Judas and said to him, “What are you doing here? You are Jesus’ disciple.”

Judas answered them as they wished. And he received some money and handed him over to them.


Given the tone of the rest, I would not be surprised if, when Judas asks about what they will do, Jesus goes on to bad-mouth the twelve disciples as well. Also note that at the very end of the gospel (at least, what survives) we have the betrayl of Jesus, not the death and resurrection.

So yeah... I can see why the Church wouldn't want this in the canonnical Gospels.
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necrolyte
post Apr 10 2006, 06:59 AM
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It seems fair that they would consider it politically damaging, but on what philosophical and theological grounds do priests consider it apocryphal today?
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Benevolent
post Apr 10 2006, 10:11 AM
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By it being heretical, and used by a group of heretics.
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necrolyte
post Apr 10 2006, 03:39 PM
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QUOTE(Benevolent @ Apr 10 2006, 10:11 AM)
By it being heretical, and used by a group of heretics.
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Well it being used by heretics doens't mean anything. Heretics could use the book of Matthew and it wouldn't become heretical. There would need to be some justification, would there not?
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Dakyron
post Apr 10 2006, 03:50 PM
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QUOTE(necrolyte @ Apr 10 2006, 08:39 AM)
Well it being used by heretics doens't mean anything. Heretics could use the book of Matthew and it wouldn't become heretical. There would need to be some justification, would there not?
*



Well, okay... lets think about this logically for a moment... I know, something that is both difficult, and dangerous, to do with religion sometimes...

You hav 5 gospels(plus a few others, but lets just say 5 for arguments sake). Four say one thing, the 5th says something different. Would you give more, or less, credence to the 5th one?

Now, if this is the gospel of Judas, then from the other gospels we would automatically think Judas to be of low moral character. Thus, it would not be out of character for him to either lie or misinterpret the message of Jesus. Therefore, this is another reason to discount it.

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JLord
post Apr 10 2006, 03:58 PM
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There are a lot more than 5. And there is nothing unique about the four that are in the bible.

Anyways, it seems logical to me that Jesus would ask Judas to betray him.
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Dakyron
post Apr 10 2006, 05:15 PM
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QUOTE(JLord @ Apr 10 2006, 08:58 AM)
Anyways, it seems logical to me that Jesus would ask Judas to betray him.
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Why?
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xcr
post Apr 10 2006, 06:19 PM
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Dak- so that he could die for the sins of us all?

J-lord, Necro- as Adam explained, there are far more issues than just the re-casting of Judas as reguards the betrayal.
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necrolyte
post Apr 10 2006, 06:34 PM
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QUOTE(Dakyron @ Apr 10 2006, 05:15 PM)
Why?
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Because Christ came to earth with a purpose. God is all-knowing, therefore he was aware of the fate of his "son" or "prohpet" when he was brought into the world. If God has a plan, it would have to include Christ's fate. Yet God's plan couldn't hinge on someone sinning, could it not? Christ would never have been matyred without Judas, so without Judas's actions, God's plan would never have been fullfilled.

All gospels are contradictory, you can't remove one based on the contradictions without removing all.

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Dakyron
post Apr 10 2006, 06:48 PM
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QUOTE(necrolyte @ Apr 10 2006, 11:34 AM)
Because Christ came to earth with a purpose. God is all-knowing, therefore he was aware of the fate of his "son" or "prohpet" when he was brought into the world. If God has a plan, it would have to include Christ's fate. Yet God's plan couldn't hinge on someone sinning, could it not? Christ would never have been matyred without Judas, so without Judas's actions, God's plan would never have been fullfilled.

*



I would have to dispute this.

Among other things, I have heard that Jesus, through his interaction with Judas, essentially would be condemning him to hell because Jesus knew through his divine father, that Judas would betray him. Thus, that Jesus would ask Judas to turn him in comes up as a way to excuse Judas' actions and make it look like God did not set Judas' up for failure.

However, I completely disagree.

The concept of free will being given to man means that while Jesus knew ahead of time, and had forgiven Judas' before he committed the sin, it still had to be Judas' choice to do so. Showing that he forgave even someone who betrayed him as Judas did was a powerful statement.
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necrolyte
post Apr 10 2006, 09:20 PM
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But it ignores the fact that God acts with a plan, which means God would *plan* for Judas to betray him.

And to my knowledge, he also forgives the Romans, who are the true villains, but were ignored by the bigoted Medievals because Jews for many reasons must have been easier for them to blame for ancestral guilt.
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JLord
post Apr 10 2006, 09:47 PM
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QUOTE(Dakyron @ Apr 10 2006, 12:48 PM)
The concept of free will being given to man means that while Jesus knew ahead of time, and had forgiven Judas' before he committed the sin, it still had to be Judas' choice to do so. Showing that he forgave even someone who betrayed him as Judas did was a powerful statement.
*



It would also fit if he was forgiving Judas for betraying him because that is what he told Judas to do. It just seems to make sense that someone would come up with this type of story at some point in time and write it as a gospel.
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Dakyron
post Apr 10 2006, 09:54 PM
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QUOTE(necrolyte @ Apr 10 2006, 02:20 PM)
But it ignores the fact that God acts with a plan, which means God would *plan* for Judas to betray him.

And to my knowledge, he also forgives the Romans, who are the true villains, but were ignored by the bigoted Medievals because Jews for many reasons must have been easier for them to blame for ancestral guilt.
*



Perhaps God, being omnipotent, knew ahead of time but still gave Judas free will to do as he wished.

Hatred for the jewish developed later I would think... Romans hated the jews, but those who followed Christ were jews at that time...

QUOTE(JLord @ Apr 10 2006, 02:47 PM)
It would also fit if he was forgiving Judas for betraying him because that is what he told Judas to do.  It just seems to make sense that someone would come up with this type of story at some point in time and write it as a gospel.
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Makes sense someone would write it, I dont know if it makes sense that God would do this...
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JLord
post Apr 10 2006, 10:05 PM
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QUOTE(Dakyron @ Apr 10 2006, 03:54 PM)
Makes sense someone would write it, I dont know if it makes sense that God would do this...
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Well you can't really make sense of anything he does, so who knows. But I do know that as the various gospels were written, the various communities adopted the stories they liked. Some were from previous gospels, and some were made up. That is how the Gospels of the Bible came to be, in addition to the dozens of other known gospels from around that time period.
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