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kindfluffysteve
post Aug 27 2005, 04:08 AM
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(IMG:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c2/Vostok-ice-core-petit.png)

again: this is a time period of nearly 0.5 million years. and sediments can go further.


A two-mile-long ice core drilled out of an Antarctic ice sheet shows that levels of heat-trapping greenhouse gases are higher now than at any time in the past 420,000 years. Scientists with the National Center for Scientific Research in Grenoble, France, find that carbon dioxide levels rose from about 180 parts per million during ice ages to 280-300 parts per million in warm periods - far below the current CO2 concentration of 360 parts per million. Methane levels, meanwhile, rose from 320-350 parts per billion during ice ages to 650- 770 parts per billion during the warm spells. The current methane concentration is about 1,700 parts per billion.
(Associated Press, June 10)

This post has been edited by kindfluffysteve: Aug 27 2005, 04:10 AM
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Raider
post Aug 27 2005, 07:44 AM
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What does increased CO2 have to do with global warming?

It wasn't too long ago that the same increase was going to doom us to another ice age.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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MindsWideOpen
post Aug 27 2005, 09:06 AM
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Apparent contradictions are not always contradictions, grasshopper.
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Thor of the Orange Hammer
post Aug 27 2005, 09:11 AM
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What amazes me is that some people are so arrogant that they actually believe that they can control the tepperature on the planet.

Look up during the day grasshopper and see the Sun.
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MindsWideOpen
post Aug 27 2005, 09:18 AM
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That we (partially) can control it I do not think is disputed, as long as you believe in that humans can control their own actions, the question is if we can control it to any significant degree, especially in reference to a possible global warm.

And I've seen the sun, but I prefer to look at the stars (see the joke, get a cookie).
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Christian
post Aug 27 2005, 09:24 AM
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Well we can to an extent controll the warmth of our planet.

A problem whith the globalwarming that is occuring now is that when it getīs warmer (1 or 2 C, is enought) the arctic frost loses it grip on large parts of the planet, like in Lappland- sweden and in Siberia.

that leads to rising Methane levels becuse the frosen ground contains wast amounts of Methane.

And if more Methane is released the warming will continue, and so on, it will soon spin out of controll, leading to larger floods and more extreme weather.


And Methane is like ten times worse than CO2 or something simmilar.....

im not really sure now but i think it can become an Ice age if enough gas are in the air, it will block out the sun rays (or energy in these) and it will become severly colder.. (is surely a lot of other factors as well, that can trigger ice age without large concentrations of CO2... like a disturbance of the planets trajection towards the sun...)

much like if there is a meteor impact on land the dust will block the sun out, same with enought CO2... But first we will have a very un controlled weather....


feel free to educate me if im wrong.....
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Christian
post Aug 27 2005, 09:26 AM
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QUOTE
And I've seen the sun, but I prefer to look at the stars (see the joke, get a cookie).


well amasing that some people never has seen them....
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kindfluffysteve
post Aug 27 2005, 11:15 AM
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QUOTE(Raider @ Aug 27 2005, 07:44 AM)
What does increased CO2 have to do with global warming?

It wasn't too long ago that the same increase was going to doom us to another ice age.

:rolleyes:  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:
*



is it just me, or do people hate posts like this. its like is the poster dumb, or is the poster just acting dumb - neither sort of poster deserves a response?
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Thor of the Orange Hammer
post Aug 27 2005, 11:47 AM
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Steve I'm going to give you a history lesson.

When you Reds ran to the Enviromental Movement after the Vietnam War in your anti-capitalist, anti-liberty movement your first claim was that there was a new Ice Age on the way and used psudo-science, just like you global warming hate liberty and sucsess types are in some places doing right now.

The next global calamity that you abnti-capitalist, anti-liberty freaks tried to pass off on us was the future lack of food and we were all gonna starve.

Then it was global warming, and back to a new ice age because of global warming and so on and so forth.

Now here is what you anti-capitalists and anti-liberty types always propose.

Huge Tax increases.

Why? Because Taxes solve everything according to you leftists.

Draconian controls on our choices in life.

Why? Because you think we are too stupid to live our own lives.

The problem is we the people ain't buying that snake-oil any more.
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kindfluffysteve
post Aug 27 2005, 12:56 PM
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QUOTE(Edward @ Aug 27 2005, 11:47 AM)
Steve I'm going to give you a history lesson.

When you Reds ran to the Enviromental Movement after the Vietnam War in your anti-capitalist, anti-liberty movement your first claim was that there was a new Ice Age on the way and used psudo-science, just like you global warming hate liberty and sucsess types are in some places doing right now.

The next global calamity that you abnti-capitalist, anti-liberty freaks tried to pass off on us was the future lack of food and we were all gonna starve.

Then it was global warming, and back to a new ice age because of global warming and so on and so forth.

Now here is what you anti-capitalists and anti-liberty types always propose.

Huge Tax increases.

Why? Because Taxes solve everything according to you leftists.

Draconian controls on our choices in life.

Why? Because you think we are too stupid to live our own lives.

The problem is we the people ain't buying that snake-oil any more.
*




so basically, you hate the environment. and with regards to tax hikes.. i dont believe any of it.

QUOTE
Then it was global warming, and back to a new ice age because of global warming and so on and so forth.


are you genuinely confused or just playing the dumb card?
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Fairlane
post Aug 27 2005, 01:10 PM
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Raider:

QUOTE
What does increased CO2 have to do with global warming?

It wasn't too long ago that the same increase was going to doom us to another ice age.


:blink:

Having fun with the bullshitting?

Make a claim this controversial, then back it up, tiger.

This post has been edited by Fairlane: Aug 27 2005, 03:56 PM
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Thor of the Orange Hammer
post Aug 27 2005, 01:56 PM
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Steve,

I'm a bit older than you. I've heard this shit before. I've listened to Calamitists try to sell me snake oil before. All it did was turn my teeth green and my hair orange.

You see my friend even I won't deny that there is some global warming. It has happened in the past and will happen in the future, just like ice ages will. My problem is the that I don't think and so far nobody has proven beyond a reasonanle doubt that man can make any contribution to controlling it.

But your side sends so many mixed signals that to be frank I and many others have turned our ears off and dismiss most of your arguments. Te fact is we recognise you for what you are and we are not ging to fall for it anymore.

BTW the EEviLLLL Capitalists lead the way in cleaning up the enviroment because we can afford it. In the mean time places like Romania that were run by sensible Communist regimes have poisioned thier enviroment and are getting it cleaned up with the help of the EEEViLL Capitalists.


QUOTE
so basically, you hate the environment.


I like the enviroment and have seen the rea where I live cleaned up, the appliances we use get more and more efficient, the cars, trucks and SUVs we drive get more eficient and cleaner. And I didn't have to bankrupt my self to get there.

QUOTE
and with regards to tax hikes.. i dont believe any of it


Of course you don't. Because if you admit the truth it would expose the enviromentalist wacko movement for what it really is.

Every soluition you Reds come up with costs me money and makes my house cold in the winter.

Not playing anymore.


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kindfluffysteve
post Aug 27 2005, 03:22 PM
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QUOTE(Edward @ Aug 27 2005, 01:56 PM)
Steve,

I'm a bit older than you. I've heard this shit before. I've listened to Calamitists try to sell me snake oil before. All it did was turn my teeth green and my hair orange.

You see my friend even I won't deny that there is some global warming. It has happened in the past and will happen in the future, just like ice ages will. My problem is the that I don't think and so far nobody has proven beyond a reasonanle doubt that man can make any contribution to controlling it.



fucking hell.

these levels of co2 and methane have not been seen across many ages - ice core for example goes back 0.5 million years, sediments further, etc. the human race has never seen co2 and methane levels this high before.

and in those cores, are examples of temperature changes of +/-10degrees C. you're blasé attitude is strategically flawed. and dont talk about your old age, as if you've seen it all. you've existed for a spec in geologicaly time scales.

guys, is edward a known anti-science poster?

This post has been edited by kindfluffysteve: Aug 27 2005, 03:24 PM
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Gengari
post Aug 27 2005, 03:37 PM
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That's quite alright, you're known as our local counter-intelligence officer.


No, he's not. He's known as a sceptic when it comes to anything he doesn't believe in. This is also known as a conservative.
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Fairlane
post Aug 27 2005, 04:12 PM
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QUOTE
Now here is what you anti-capitalists and anti-liberty types always propose


Yup, here's another gem from the nonsense brigade; the American Meteorological Society, the American Geophysical Union, the American Association for the Advancement of Science and the NAS are all commie organizations! Together with those pinko-bastards at the IPCC they've created the "global warming" theory in order to undermine our hard-won freedoms.

Pass the tin-foil...

QUOTE
I'm a bit older than you. I've heard this shit before. I've listened to Calamitists try to sell me snake oil before. All it did was turn my teeth green and my hair orange.

You see my friend even I won't deny that there is some global warming. It has happened in the past and will happen in the future, just like ice ages will.


Good grief Ed. Can't you honestly see the difference between the ice-age debacle in the 70īs and the situation we are facing now?

This post has been edited by Fairlane: Aug 27 2005, 04:13 PM
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Wolfenstein
post Aug 27 2005, 04:33 PM
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kindfluffysteve
post Aug 27 2005, 04:36 PM
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http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18524861.500

meet the skeptics.

Meet the global warming sceptics

* 12 February 2005
* NewScientist.com news service

Most of the prominent organisations making the case against mainstream climate science have an avowed agenda of promoting free markets and minimal government. They often accept funding from the fossil-fuel industry. Few employ climate scientists.

1 Competitive Enterprise Institute (Washington DC)

A free-market lobby organisation that employs six experts on climate change. Two are lawyers, one an economist, one a political scientist, one a graduate in business studies and one a mathematician. They include economist Myron Ebell, most famous in the UK for a tirade on BBC radio in November 2004 in which he accused the UK government's chief scientist David King of "knowing nothing about climate science". The institute receives funding from ExxonMobil, the world's largest oil company and an outspoken corporate opponent of mainstream climate science.

2 American Enterprise Institute (Washington DC)

Another free market think tank. The five experts it sent to the most recent negotiations on the Kyoto protocol, held in Buenos Aires, Argentina, in December, included just one natural scientist - a chemist. Receives money from ExxonMobil.

3 George C. Marshall Institute (Washington DC)

A think tank that has been promoting scepticism on climate change since 1989. It is a leading proponent of the argument that climate science is highly uncertain. Receives money from ExxonMobil.

4 International Policy Network (London)

Free-market think tank which in November 2004 said global warming was a "myth", and described David King as "an embarrassment". Receives money from ExxonMobil.
5 The scientists

There are a few authoritative climate scientists in the sceptic camp. The most notable are Patrick Michaels from the University of Virginia, who is also the chief environmental commentator at the Cato Institute in Washington DC, and meteorologist Richard Lindzen from MIT. Most others are either retired, outside mainstream academia or tied to the fossil fuel industry. In the UK, three of the most prominent are Philip Stott, a retired biogeographer, former TV botanist David Bellamy, and Martin Keeley, a palaeogeologist. Keeley argues on a BBC website that "global warming is a scam, perpetrated by scientists with vested interests". He is an oil exploration consultant.
From issue 2486 of New Scientist magazine, 12 February 2005, page 40
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Dragonspirit
post Aug 27 2005, 04:41 PM
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So, what is the proposal?

You believe there is a problem. Maybe, maybe not. Assuming there is, what do you want to do?
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kindfluffysteve
post Aug 27 2005, 04:47 PM
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first things first. US has to get on board with this. and it seems necessary to engage in a PR war against the contrarians.
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Dragonspirit
post Aug 27 2005, 04:56 PM
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Not going to get on board with anything unless we hear the whole offer.

You see, in America, we have this thing called "Used Car Salesman" and this creature has made many of us skeptical about committing to anything until we hear the entire offer.
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Molimo
post Aug 27 2005, 05:16 PM
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QUOTE(Raider @ Aug 27 2005, 02:44 AM)
What does increased CO2 have to do with global warming?

It wasn't too long ago that the same increase was going to doom us to another ice age.

:rolleyes:  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:
*




Weeeeeeell... I've heard one scenario for global warming that would result in an ice age.

Basically, as the oceans warm up, the Gulf Stream slows to a halt. Because of this, the temperature of numerous European countries would drop significantly, resulting in a possible ice age.

Would that be cancelled out by the global warming? Are there other factors that would intensify or weaken the ice age? Nobody really knows. It's like trying to calculate the trajectory of an airplane by examining the motion of individual air molecules around it.
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necrolyte
post Aug 27 2005, 06:55 PM
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QUOTE
What does increased CO2 have to do with global warming?

It wasn't too long ago that the same increase was going to doom us to another ice age.


Global dimming is different than global warming in that it is not caused by CO2 but by heavier particles.

If you don't know that, don't post in this thread please.

It should be noted that the reduction of aerosols in the atmosphere has resulted in an increase of global warming, so the effects of global warming may be much worse.

Wolfy-the greenhouse theory has scientific backing, and those graphs are meant to show that the correlations match other science.

Also correlation, you are right, does not show causation. However, repeated correlation can indicate causation. Thats the idea of scientific experiment and observation.

Edward-the costs of reducing global warming are mcuh lower than the benefits. In fact, a reduction in oil consumption would do the world a load of good. It is known that Carbon Dioxide IS a contributing factor in global temperature, regardless of how much it contributes. It is also known that carbon dioxide is caused by energy consumption by humans amoung other things. So if we cut down on Carbon Dioxide emissions, the only, the ONLY way we can do that is by cutting down on consumption of fossil fuel energy. There are so many benefits to that I should not have to list htem.

It should be noted that your accusation of scientists playing up threats to begin costly operations based on faulty information can be just as easily attritubted to the Bush administration (Iraq war anyone?)-and the costs of the Iraq war are far higher than the costs of cutting down on global warming.
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Raider
post Aug 27 2005, 07:30 PM
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Steve,

http://www.utopia-politics.com/forums/inde...showtopic=22267

The idea that global warming is anything close to a "sure thing" is thoroughly debunked here. You never did get around to addressing why the IPCC concluded human impact on the environment is unknown or why various scientific papers indicate massive cooling trends or the possible flaws in methodology that shows warming or the willingness of the global warming camp to dismiss satellite data and/or treat it completely different than ground data, etc., etc. etc,.

This post has been edited by Raider: Aug 27 2005, 07:31 PM
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kindfluffysteve
post Aug 27 2005, 07:37 PM
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forumites, debunking the orthodox view of the climate? - i am skeptical, and i have a right to be.

This post has been edited by kindfluffysteve: Aug 27 2005, 07:38 PM
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Raider
post Aug 27 2005, 07:58 PM
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I didn't do any debunking. Just presented the debunking already done by the scientific community. Everything is well cited for your reading pleasure.
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kindfluffysteve
post Aug 27 2005, 10:53 PM
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QUOTE(Raider @ Aug 27 2005, 07:58 PM)
I didn't do any debunking.  Just presented the debunking already done by the scientific community.  Everything is well cited for your reading pleasure.
*




information burrowing.
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Benevolent
post Aug 27 2005, 11:28 PM
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QUOTE(kindfluffysteve @ Aug 27 2005, 05:53 PM)
information burrowing.
*



Do that again, and you're getting a warning for spamming.

You've been challenged with criticisms to your views. Accusing someone of "information burrowing," just because you don't have an answer, is just trolling for flames.
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Fairlane
post Aug 28 2005, 12:11 AM
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Again, I repeat my post directed to Raider (since he seems to selectively have ignored it):

Raider:

QUOTE
What does increased CO2 have to do with global warming?

It wasn't too long ago that the same increase was going to doom us to another ice age.


:blink:

Having fun with the bullshitting?

Make a claim this controversial, then back it up, tiger.
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Raider
post Aug 28 2005, 12:49 AM
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Why?
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QUOTE
Having fun with the bullshitting?

Make a claim this controversial, then back it up, tiger.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_cooling

The relevant part would read "In the 1970s there was increasing awareness that estimates of global temperatures showed cooling... "
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Cerian
post Aug 28 2005, 01:14 AM
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QUOTE(Raider @ Aug 28 2005, 12:49 AM)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_cooling

The relevant part would read "In the 1970s there was increasing awareness that estimates of global temperatures showed cooling... "
*




Which obviously means that in the 1970s there was an increasing awareness that high CO2 levels caused global cooling?

There have been changes in environmental policy since the 1970s, for example, regulation of aerosol sprays. (And fancy that, aerosols being a cooling influence on temperature...)
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