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" width="8" height="8"/> The Definition Of A Particle?, ... in quantum mechanics

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Questess	Mar 25 2003, 11:33 PM Post #1
Frost Ninja O_o Group: Members Posts: 1,553 Joined: 30-January 03 From: Umeå, Sweden Member No.: 248	Can anyone tell me what it is?

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Telum	Mar 25 2003, 11:49 PM Post #2
Admin Group: Moderators Posts: 7,429 Joined: 20-December 02 Member No.: 224	a probability

Questess	Mar 25 2003, 11:55 PM Post #3
Frost Ninja O_o Group: Members Posts: 1,553 Joined: 30-January 03 From: Umeå, Sweden Member No.: 248	What? I mean, it's said that a particle/wave duality exists and whatever it is, it has both particle and wave properties. Now I know the definition of a wave pretty well and I've seen numerous examples in where it's shown how it has wave properties, but it'd be nice to know what the exact definition of a particle is (ie, what differs it from a wave... that it has mass?) and perhaps an example in where it's shown how it has particle properties aswell as wave properties.

Telum	Mar 25 2003, 11:56 PM Post #4
Admin Group: Moderators Posts: 7,429 Joined: 20-December 02 Member No.: 224	There is no such thing as a particle. All things have a wavelength. Go a google on deBroglie wavelengths

Questess	Mar 26 2003, 12:25 AM Post #5
Frost Ninja O_o Group: Members Posts: 1,553 Joined: 30-January 03 From: Umeå, Sweden Member No.: 248	But there has to be such a thing, or they wouldn't say that a particle/wave duality exists. If there were no evidence that particles existed and that things were not just a wave, they wouldn't claim that it is, right?

Seb	Mar 26 2003, 12:35 AM Post #6
I am Mehul Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 16-June 02 From: Pimlico village, London, UK Member No.: 17	There is no such thing as a wave. There is no such thing as a particle. There are these things (call them wave-particles) and in some situations they exhibit wave like behavious, in others particle like behaviour. But waves and particles are just models for reality rather than reality itself.

Questess

Mar 26 2003, 12:36 AM

Post #7

Frost Ninja O_o

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Seb,

QUOTE

in others particle like behaviour

Can you give an example of this? And define 'particle like behaviour'? ^_^

This post has been edited by Questess: Mar 26 2003, 12:37 AM

Questess	Mar 26 2003, 12:38 AM Post #8
Frost Ninja O_o Group: Members Posts: 1,553 Joined: 30-January 03 From: Umeå, Sweden Member No.: 248	Llywelyn, Sounds likely.. but do you know if a defined definition exists? Such as "In quantum mechanics, a particle is defined as... " EDIT: Llywelyn, where did your post go? :ph34r: This post has been edited by Questess: Mar 26 2003, 12:39 AM

Llywelyn	Mar 26 2003, 12:49 AM Post #9
Mezameru Kotonaikedo Group: Members Posts: 5,735 Joined: 26-June 02 From: New Orleans, LA Member No.: 64	Questess: wanted to rewrite it and so I deleted it :-) Not to my knowledge. There believe there is a definition for a quantum particle, but not for a "generalized particle".

Questess	Mar 26 2003, 12:57 AM Post #10
Frost Ninja O_o Group: Members Posts: 1,553 Joined: 30-January 03 From: Umeå, Sweden Member No.: 248	You don't happen to know the definition of a quantum particle then? I think that might be what I'm looking for anyways ^_^

Raider	Mar 26 2003, 01:07 AM Post #11
Why? Group: JFTD Posts: 5,736 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 130	Hmm...a group of greater than one quanta? That would make earth a particle, but I reckon it could be called that. Particles are just bunched up packets of energy, as is the earth.

Llywelyn	Mar 26 2003, 01:08 AM Post #12
Mezameru Kotonaikedo Group: Members Posts: 5,735 Joined: 26-June 02 From: New Orleans, LA Member No.: 64	http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Particle.html Does that help?

Questess	Mar 26 2003, 01:08 AM Post #13
Frost Ninja O_o Group: Members Posts: 1,553 Joined: 30-January 03 From: Umeå, Sweden Member No.: 248	Raider, But what differs it from a wave? I believe one quantum can be called a particle...?

Questess	Mar 26 2003, 01:14 AM Post #14
Frost Ninja O_o Group: Members Posts: 1,553 Joined: 30-January 03 From: Umeå, Sweden Member No.: 248	Llywelyn, Thanks, it seems like it requires a mass and a momentum to be a particle. It does not need a location? And does it have a volume? What's a momentum though? Is it impuls (mv) or is it energy from movement (as opposed to potential energy)? Or something else?

MindsWideOpen	Mar 26 2003, 01:16 AM Post #15
Ceci n'est pas vie. Group: Forum Donor Posts: 8,799 Joined: 18-August 02 From: Slightly Pink Member No.: 120	momentum is "rörelsemängd", or (mv) plainly put. And I believe that impulse is (<delta>mv)?

Llywelyn	Mar 26 2003, 01:17 AM Post #16
Mezameru Kotonaikedo Group: Members Posts: 5,735 Joined: 26-June 02 From: New Orleans, LA Member No.: 64	Yep. Sigma Force = dp/dt

Raider

Mar 26 2003, 01:21 AM

Post #17

Why?

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QUOTE

A particle in an "indivisible" unit of matter.

It would seem to me that a particle has just been defined as nonexistant. Maybe not.

questess,

Particles act like waves. They thing is, they do it in such a fashion that you have a hard time noticing it.

Raider

Mar 26 2003, 01:22 AM

Post #18

Why?

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QUOTE

I believe one quantum can be called a particle...?

No..that is raw energy.

Questess	Mar 26 2003, 01:23 AM Post #19
Frost Ninja O_o Group: Members Posts: 1,553 Joined: 30-January 03 From: Umeå, Sweden Member No.: 248	MindsWideOpen, So it's 'rörelseenergi'? Raider, I have no doubt about the waves, I was looking for examples of waves acting like particles ^_~ I think the particle/wave duality is closer to waves than particles, if I can use that expression...

Questess

Mar 26 2003, 01:24 AM

Post #20

Frost Ninja O_o

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QUOTE

No..that is raw energy.

So is it possible to define how many quanta a... say, photon consists of?

Llywelyn	Mar 26 2003, 01:24 AM Post #21
Mezameru Kotonaikedo Group: Members Posts: 5,735 Joined: 26-June 02 From: New Orleans, LA Member No.: 64	Note the quotations. Two protons can be separated, one can be defined as a particle. Remember, this models reality and all models are wrong.

Llywelyn

Mar 26 2003, 01:25 AM

Post #22

Mezameru Kotonaikedo

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QUOTE (Questess @ Mar 25 2003, 06:24 PM)

So is it possible to define how many quanta a... say, photon consists of?

By definition, one.

Llywelyn	Mar 26 2003, 01:27 AM Post #23
Mezameru Kotonaikedo Group: Members Posts: 5,735 Joined: 26-June 02 From: New Orleans, LA Member No.: 64	Two protons could also be defined as a "helium particle"

Raider

Mar 26 2003, 01:27 AM

Post #24

Why?

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QUOTE

So is it possible to define how many quanta a... say, photon consists of?

Yes...

QUOTE

I have no doubt about the waves, I was looking for examples of waves acting like particles

Uhh...? You are a collection of waves acting like a collection of particles.

QUOTE

Note the quotations.

Booo. That takes away the meaning of it, if you get to play with the meaning of an essential part of the definition.

Raider	Mar 26 2003, 01:28 AM Post #25
Why? Group: JFTD Posts: 5,736 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 130	Really, the waves arn't acting likes particles (as there is no such thing as particles), but I think you can imagine what I mean.

Llywelyn	Mar 26 2003, 01:29 AM Post #26
Mezameru Kotonaikedo Group: Members Posts: 5,735 Joined: 26-June 02 From: New Orleans, LA Member No.: 64	Raider: It is a model, apply it where and how you will. You simply define what you are working with to be indivisible and work from there.

Questess

Mar 26 2003, 02:02 AM

Post #27

Frost Ninja O_o

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Raider quote:

QUOTE

Me: I believe one quantum can be called a particle...?

No..that is raw energy.

Llywelyn quotes:

QUOTE

Two protons can be separated, one can be defined as a particle.

QUOTE

Me: So is it possible to define how many quanta a... say, photon consists of?

By definition, one.

---

They don't agree...?

---

QUOTE

You are a collection of waves acting like a collection of particles.

QUOTE

Really, the waves arn't acting likes particles (as there is no such thing as particles)

So why mix in particles at all? Why not say they're just waves?

Seb	Mar 26 2003, 02:10 AM Post #28
I am Mehul Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 16-June 02 From: Pimlico village, London, UK Member No.: 17	Questess: An electron can exhibit particle like behaviour in the case of colliding electron beams into targets, or wave like behaviour when you pass it through a slit. JJ Thompson won a Nobel prise for prooving the electron was a particle. His son won one for prooving it was a wave.

Questess	Mar 26 2003, 02:18 AM Post #29
Frost Ninja O_o Group: Members Posts: 1,553 Joined: 30-January 03 From: Umeå, Sweden Member No.: 248	Seb, thank you ^_^ Any more info on the experiment of colliding electron beams into targets would be very appreciated ^_^

Raider	Mar 26 2003, 02:19 AM Post #30
Why? Group: JFTD Posts: 5,736 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 130	Questess, it is just a matter of perspective. The universe is nothing more than energy reacting. Waves and particles are just symbols to explain patterns we perceive, not actual things.

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