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" width="8" height="8"/> responsibility in friendship, not discussed often enough here
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necrolyte
post Jan 21 2005, 09:58 PM
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I was thinking that the subject of friendship, probably one of the most influential forces in human relations, is under-discussed in philosophy/ethics. Friends are just as important, if not perhaps more important than family. They shape our lives, and we shape their lives. A lot can be told about a person by who they make friends with.

So I was wondering-do we have ethical responsibilities to our friends that we do not have towards other people, or do we just act like we do? What makes a good friend, truth and honesty in a relationship? Or does it depend on the friendship?

the answer to the first question I find really hard. People should have responsibility towards all people, but humans are limited by their nature so perhaps the extra care and love we give towards our friends should be something we afford to all people but naturally cannot?

Im really too tired to write up something very good right now-I want to see what you ppl say about it.
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miltonfriedman
post Jan 21 2005, 11:40 PM
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so what i am hearing is that you would treat your friends differently than you would with outsiders? your moral behavior is as dubious as your refusal to help the tsunami victims.
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acow
post Jan 22 2005, 01:30 AM
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As opposed to milton, who splits his time and resources equally with all people's of the world?

All people being identical in worth, and not being constrained like the rest of us with a physical body, milton of course achieves this effortlessly.

Extra attention and time should be given to dealings with friends, because they are different from everyone else.
The thing is to make sure its not just your friend's status that makes them different, that your justified in your descrimination because of the people they are.
Just as love shouldn't be unconditional, so neither should friendship, and failings and evils committed by a person should never be ignored just because they have "friend" status.
To do so is a weaker version of the woman who stays with an abusive husband because she "loves" him.
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Dragonspirit
post Jan 23 2005, 03:20 AM
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QUOTE
Friends are just as important, if not perhaps more important than family.


Well, barring that statement (which I disagree with 100% which I chalk up to the fact you're not at the point where you've had kids or been married), it's a good topic. Family is THE most important thing in life. I might take a bullet for my friends - I might even take one for a stranger under the right circumstances, but I would do anything to protect my family. Anything. No matter how otherwise wrong, stupid or whatever. That is the only group on this planet that I give that type of unconditional love and loyalty to.

I have to say, getting back to the topic of friendship, that I've found that over the course of my life while I've had dozens of people I'd call friends, that I have only had perhaps two or three that I felt such a bond with that I would put them in that highest category of friend. And I couldn't give a satisfactory answer as to why. It's not really the length of time of the friendship. It's not even the amount of time I'd see the person on a regular basis. It's not even having more in common with them. It's just a sort of.. clicking that happens. Perhaps I'm rambling on a bit, but to explain a little more it's almost like once in that rare long while that you have one of those friendships it's almost like you compliment each other. That you are just really, really happy to be in that person's company.

I sometimes catch myself wishing to find that type of friendship again when I think about it.
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miltonfriedman
post Jan 23 2005, 03:27 AM
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QUOTE(acow @ Jan 21 2005, 08:30 PM)
As opposed to milton, who splits his time and resources equally with all people's of the world?

All people being identical in worth, and not being constrained like the rest of us with a physical body, milton of course achieves this effortlessly.

Extra attention and time should be given to dealings with friends, because they are different from everyone else.
The thing is to make sure its not just your friend's status that makes them different, that your justified in your descrimination because of the people they are.
Just as love shouldn't be unconditional, so neither should friendship, and failings and evils committed by a person should never be ignored just because they have "friend" status.
To do so is a weaker version of the woman who stays with an abusive husband because she "loves" him.
*



necrolyte asked 'ethical responsibility', not about my perceived liklihood in seeing reciprocal actions, which doubtless change my distribution of resources. of course, i can see why you are unable to differentiate these two divergent standpoints as they do not offer you the opportunity to bullshit a para or two.

your constant need to expound tangential and irrelevant points have once again led you astray and veered off the path.

This post has been edited by miltonfriedman: Jan 23 2005, 05:31 AM
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necrolyte
post Jan 23 2005, 04:07 AM
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Acow-sometimes ignoring Miltonius is an art well-learned (and oft forgotten on my part) to being a UPer :lol:

I like both of your responses. I was thinking something similair about unconditional love and being willing to do anything for someone-we shouldnt be willing to do anything for someone who would abuse that, as perhaps those are not the kind of people who we should surrender unconditional love and care for. And DS, we should be wary sometimes of being unconditional towards our family, as they can abuse unconditional love (look no farther than a younger sibling who mooches of her older siblings and does shit knowing you'll bail them out.)

I know that kind of friendship DS-I really love those. I've had VERY few of those-even some of my best friends I miss that with, where even if we have seperate interests, I feel like I can hang out with them anytime, and that I can chill with them without having to maintian conversation and small talk. You might be right about family and friendship and their importance on us-its probably my college student status your right.
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miltonfriedman
post Jan 23 2005, 05:29 AM
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so you believe then that moral responsibility is the same as complete impartiality in your redistribution of personal resources?

i can see why you'd change your topic to accommodate acow's points. your moral grounds are untenable and weak. indeed, a classic case of necrolitis constantchangesis.
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Ferran
post Jan 23 2005, 06:59 AM
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Milton: "blah blah blah negativity; fake whit blah blah. Rhetor blah blah..."

Ideally, we should treat everyone with the same amount of great respect.

Realistically, friends (true friends with whom you have disagreements every now and then, but always resolve them) deserve more than a stranger from you, even if only because they're your friend. Obviously, they had to do something to get to that status or els ethey wouldn't be your friend, right?
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acow
post Jan 23 2005, 08:15 AM
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QUOTE
necrolyte asked 'ethical responsibility', not about my perceived liklihood in seeing reciprocal actions, which doubtless change my distribution of resources. of course, i can see why you are unable to differentiate these two divergent standpoints as they do not offer you the opportunity to bullshit a para or two.


Right, and you responded that because he acts differently towards his friends than he does to outsiders, that his morals are dubious.

Then i think i said in technical terms: Milton, fecal matter is pouring out your mouth again.

Of course, god forbid someone suggest that ethics and co aren't two divergent standpoints...sorry we can't all live in your ignorant little world where such things are just known by all to be fundamentally seperate and taken for granted.

DS:

QUOTE
I might even take one for a stranger under the right circumstances, but I would do anything to protect my family. Anything. No matter how otherwise wrong, stupid or whatever. That is the only group on this planet that I give that type of unconditional love and loyalty to.


If your wife spontaeneously, cheated on you, cut you with a knife, and left you for another man, would your love still be unconditional?

If it turns out that your child is not your own, but actually genetically this other mans, and she is taking them to live with him, does this change anything?
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miltonfriedman
post Jan 23 2005, 02:33 PM
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QUOTE(Ferran @ Jan 23 2005, 01:59 AM)
Milton: "blah blah blah negativity; fake whit blah blah. Rhetor blah blah..."

Ideally, we should treat everyone with the same amount of great respect.

Realistically, friends (true friends with whom you have disagreements every now and then, but always resolve them) deserve more than a stranger from you, even if only because they're your friend. Obviously, they had to do something to get to that status or els ethey wouldn't be your friend, right?
*



your contribution, as usual, reiterates only the points made by others. good job. ferran. let's just quote the poster whom you plagerized from and be done with it.

acow,

QUOTE
Right, and you responded that because he acts differently towards his friends than he does to outsiders, that his morals are dubious.

Then i think i said in technical terms: Milton, fecal matter is pouring out your mouth again.

Of course, god forbid someone suggest that ethics and co aren't two divergent standpoints...sorry we can't all live in your ignorant little world where such things are just known by all to be fundamentally seperate and taken for granted.


once again, acow, your inability to construct any arguments have led you to post yet three more paras of worthless junk. are you not the same person who just lambasted those who cannot proffer 5 dollars for the tsunami relief? were you expecting repciprocity? no? yeah, i thought so.

from that simple example, we can plainly see that reciprocity is independent of ethics.

now, of course, you weren't able to capture the word 'reciprocity'. instead, you used the word 'co', which i assumed it to be co-operation. your inability to read aside, the two concepts are different. while i understand that if you were to stay on the topic, you wouldn't be able to write much b.s., please refrain from going off on tangential topics in the future.

and yes, reciprocity is taken for granted. too many literatures exist to show us that.
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Dragonspirit
post Jan 23 2005, 06:04 PM
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QUOTE
If your wife spontaeneously, cheated on you, cut you with a knife, and left you for another man, would your love still be unconditional?


I would be hurt, I would be furious, and I might even not want to ever see her again - but yes, I would still love her I think, at least part of me. It's not an on/off switch I can flip. Incidentally, I imagine it would be possible to both simultaneously love and hate the same person for various reasons.

QUOTE
If it turns out that your child is not your own, but actually genetically this other mans, and she is taking them to live with him, does this change anything?


My sons are always and forever my sons and I'll never let anything break that. Though I'd obviously be hurt and angry if I found out they weren't genetically mine, my love for them can not be diminished. That much I do know for sure.
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acow
post Jan 24 2005, 03:57 AM
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QUOTE
once again, acow, your inability to construct any arguments have led you to post yet three more paras of worthless junk. are you not the same person who just lambasted those who cannot proffer 5 dollars for the tsunami relief? were you expecting repciprocity? no? yeah, i thought so.


3 paragraphs of, one whole sentence in each.
Careful milton, you'll strain your eyes if you read so much.
Though still, i see your reading comprehension hasn't improved much.
Lambasted those who can't afford to give? Would this be in the same posts where i said that not giving can be acceptable? Where i said i'd given nothing?
Where the entire post was about people who CAN afford to give something?
Oh yeah, i gave them a real going over...

QUOTE
from that simple example, we can plainly see that reciprocity is independent of ethics.


I honestly don't know why i bother to post sometimes.
Where did i talk about ethics?
Where did i imply recpiprocity?
I could actually type out that killing is wrong under all circumstances, and you would still come back and call me a killer.
Why don't you go join Ed, you could have fun with him and his leftists telling me that i think all military personel are immoral baby killers.

QUOTE
now, of course, you weren't able to capture the word 'reciprocity'. instead, you used the word 'co', which i assumed it to be co-operation. your inability to read aside, the two concepts are different. while i understand that if you were to stay on the topic, you wouldn't be able to write much b.s., please refrain from going off on tangential topics in the future.


Such a method of abbreviation doesn't exist in my every day vocabulary. If you could kindly show me where i said 'co', it'd be much appreciated, because i just searched through said thread as well as this one and couldn't find it anywhere.
I find this perplexing, because barring someone else using it first, or it just being a typo, i highly doubt i would type such a word.

QUOTE
and yes, reciprocity is taken for granted. too many literatures exist to show us that.


Damn i wish i could live in your world of economics and philosophy milton.

No need to think, or reason or queston or judge.
If people do it, or if its taken for granted, it must be valid.
Who needs philosophy in such a world.
Whatever happens is deemed correct.
As long as the majority think in such a way, it must be right!

This post has been edited by acow: Jan 24 2005, 04:00 AM
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miltonfriedman
post Jan 24 2005, 04:13 AM
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once again, the junk has to be filtered. but that would leave us with nothing to go on since you continual inability to produce cogent arguments.

QUOTE
3 paragraphs of, one whole sentence in each.
Careful milton, you'll strain your eyes if you read so much.
Though still, i see your reading comprehension hasn't improved much.
Lambasted those who can't afford to give? Would this be in the same posts where i said that not giving can be acceptable? Where i said i'd given nothing?
Where the entire post was about people who CAN afford to give something?


whoa, slow down there. do you need to lie now? is this compatible with your paltry philosophical learning that matches your equally horrendous knowledge in economics?

when lordbiteman spoke of the majority who couldn't afford to give, you promptly discussed how 'lexus' can be forego. indeed, you have lambasted those who couldn't give.

QUOTE
I honestly don't know why i bother to post sometimes.
Where did i talk about ethics?
Where did i imply recpiprocity?
I could actually type out that killing is wrong under all circumstances, and you would still come back and call me a killer.
Why don't you go join Ed, you could have fun with him and his leftists telling me that i think all military personel are immoral baby killers.


INTERESTING. so all this time you weren't discussing ethics? when necrolyte asked about 'ethical responsibiilties' to our friends?

you have efficiently wasted people's time with your ramblings, which you actually admit them to be of spams. take your bullshit elsewhere outside of this forum so we could address the topic in question instead of reading your off-topic musings. truly, if you weren't discussing ethics, then why did you posted all these crap here? just to spam?

or you talked so much you couldn't even keep your arguments straight anymore?

QUOTE
Such a method of abbreviation doesn't exist in my every day vocabulary. If you could kindly show me where i said 'co', it'd be much appreciated, because i just searched through said thread as well as this one and couldn't find it anywhere.
I find this perplexing, because barring someone else using it first, or it just being a typo, i highly doubt i would type such a word.


Of course, god forbid someone suggest that ethics and co aren't two divergent standpoints....

let's talk about reading comprehension.

QUOTE
Damn i wish i could live in your world of economics and philosophy milton.

No need to think, or reason or queston or judge.
If people do it, or if its taken for granted, it must be valid.
Who needs philosophy in such a world.
Whatever happens is deemed correct.
As long as the majority think in such a way, it must be right!


ah, loads of bullshit just rolled off your tongue instinctively.
YOU said:"sorry we can't all live in your ignorant little world where such things are just known by all to be fundamentally seperate and taken for granted."

I therefore answered yes.

I didn't discuss its validity, desirability, or justifications. i simply disputed your claim that it is not taken FOR GRANTED.

let's discuss reading comprehension.

a restrain on bullshitting could cut down most of your mistakes stemmed from reading miscomprehension. while it is difficult for you to look back at your own writing and try to weed out varities of crap, you nevertheless should attempt to do so and get your arguments in order so to avoid self-contradiction. you have talked so much that you couldn't even remember what you have written in this thread. more reading, less talking.

This post has been edited by miltonfriedman: Jan 24 2005, 04:17 AM
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necrolyte
post Jan 24 2005, 05:26 PM
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Please dont egg him on acow, he's making a big enough ass of himself on his own.

Dragonspirit and Acow-would you fall in love with a person who would do that to you? Which means, can you have unconditional love for your idea of who someone is, and not the actual person?

Ferran-however you're not aware of the quality of the character of the stranger. That stranger could be a friend in the future, and is in the same place in your eyes that your friend was in before you knew him. Meaning when you refuse to help a stranger, you're refusing to help your friend. I dunno... what I just said reminds me of a Joyce essay I read in ethics class.
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miltonfriedman
post Jan 24 2005, 05:37 PM
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is that why you still refuse to answer the question whether or not you would treat outsiders ethically, necrolyte? what are you afraid of?

speaking of making an ass out of oneself, check this out.

This post has been edited by miltonfriedman: Jan 24 2005, 05:38 PM
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Caeleddin
post Jan 24 2005, 09:34 PM
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If we have infinite resources of time and "money", then your obligations would be different. But since we do have limitations, then friends definitely get a bigger "share of the pie". That should answer your first question, Necro.

A good friendship would really depend on your interests. Just like lovers and family, you need to spend time with friends to make a friendship work. It is easier to do that if you have something similar. Similar interests makes the easiest way to get a friendship going. Work is alright, but not as easy.
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Dragonspirit
post Jan 25 2005, 03:10 AM
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QUOTE
Dragonspirit and Acow-would you fall in love with a person who would do that to you? Which means, can you have unconditional love for your idea of who someone is, and not the actual person?


I don't think I would, but you can't positively know. The fact that I love her is already done, checked off, in the books -- and I don't think she would ever betray me obviously. But if she did, it doesn't erase the fact that I love her.
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miltonfriedman
post Jan 25 2005, 03:24 AM
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ds,

paternal uncertainty is a huge problem in marriage and children tend to suffer as a result. now, i am wondering, how would you react to the kid if the uncertain has become an absolute certainty as the kid is genetically not yours? would you withhold your resources?
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Dragonspirit
post Jan 25 2005, 03:58 AM
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Honestly no, I would not withhold any resources or support just because genetically they weren't mine. I can't speak for others, but for me passing on my genetics is only a minor interest in any event. I love my kids not just because they are mine, but because I have bonded with them. I have fully accepted and embraced them as my children.

I believe that parents who adopt are just as capable, for example, to have the same level of love as any genetic parents in that same vein of thought.

I wouldn't even need a court to force me to pay money to support them in such a case btw. It baffles and saddens me that we have so many "deadbeat dads" in the world. I would always WANT to support my kids.
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miltonfriedman
post Jan 25 2005, 04:20 AM
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i don't understand why people think genetic resemblences is something that we keep in mind all the time. we do NOT do genetic calculations. this is an evolved mechanism where we are innately attracted to those who are similar to us. just like we do not consciously calculate the probability of burning our house down when playing with fire, we do not calculate genetic composition in our kins.

while we do not know how adopted parents fared, but since they had to go through so many hurdles just to adopt, it's likely that they are good at rearing the kids. but we do know that step parenthood is actually one of the greatest danger to the welfare of the child.
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Dragonspirit
post Jan 25 2005, 04:28 AM
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I don't deny that for many, it would change how they would treat their kids (or whether they would even consider them their kids anymore). I also admit that I prefer it to be this way - that they are my kids genetically as well. As I said, I can only speak for myself when I say at this point it wouldn't change anything in how I approach my relationship with them.
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Adam
post Jan 25 2005, 02:27 PM
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QUOTE
What makes a good friend, truth and honesty in a relationship?


If I may paraphrase Aristotle, "A friend is one soul in two bodies" (Nicomachean Ethics, IIRC); and Cicero, "When one looks one a true friend, one looks, as it were, on a reflection of one's self. Though absent, they are always present, and toughest still, though dead, still alive." (Laeilius de Amicitia)

There's a number of people we call `friends` in the sense that politicians call each other `gentleman` on the House floor: it is merely a ephemism for something else, in this case, `acquaintancship.` These are people who we may perhaps spend time with, and even enjoy the company of, but out interests do not diverge outside of a few interests. While, to quote Cicero again, with a true friend, "one may discourse on any subject as though with himself."

If I may paraphrase Seneca as well, he begins a moral epistle with a remark that he asks Seneca not to discuss anything contained within the letter with the friend who delivered it; Seneca says that, at once, he has both affirmed and denied his friendship with the deliverer, the latter comming from "discuss nothing."

True friendship is, naturally, a rare thing - at most, it extends between only a small group of people; and many of us have no more than perhaps 3 or 4 over the course of our lives.

At the same time, I am willing to say that the bonds of this true friendship are stronger even than the bonds of family, for if goodwill is removed from family, the ties of blood still remain; while goodwill cannot be removed from friendship without destroying the thing itself.
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necrolyte
post Jan 25 2005, 07:46 PM
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One interesting point-some of the stuff you just said is from a Greek western standpoint. Friendship means something very different to easterners, who are caught up in manners of custom and respect, however friendship is still something which is a universal, human concept.

Caeleddin-what I'm saying though is that stranger which you dont help is someone who has the potential to be one who shares those interests or whatnot, and is the same to you as your friend before you knew him.

Dragonspirit-that comes down to your beleif that you've fallen in love with her, not your idea of her. Perhaps it is safer as a human to fall in love with our ideas of people.
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miltonfriedman
post Jan 25 2005, 08:01 PM
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QUOTE(necrolyte @ Jan 25 2005, 02:46 PM)
One interesting point-some of the stuff you just said is from a Greek western standpoint. Friendship means something very different to easterners, who are caught up in manners of custom and respect, however friendship is still something which is a universal, human concept.
*



really? perhaps necrolyte can elucidate on such differences. hopefully he could do a better job than remaining decidedly mum to his dubious ethical actions toward outsiders.

This post has been edited by miltonfriedman: Jan 25 2005, 08:04 PM
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Caeleddin
post Jan 25 2005, 09:02 PM
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Necrolyte - Help is a broad term. If you mean helping an old lady across the street, then that is something that cost no money and little time. Helping a stranger out of a financial hole, is somoething else.

For strangers, I would do the former, but not the latter. For friends, I would do both. Why? Finite resources.

And, no, friendship is NOT very different to Easterners. It is different, especially where the boundaries are, but not VERY different. Take it from an Easterner.
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Adam
post Jan 25 2005, 09:14 PM
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QUOTE
One interesting point-some of the stuff you just said is from a Greek western standpoint.


Greco-Roman, actually; many of my views on friendship follow Cicero and Seneca.

And like Milton, I wait for you to elucidate more upon the difference, or at least direct me to some resources on the Eastern concept.
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Caeleddin
post Jan 25 2005, 09:17 PM
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Adam, you are a Cynic :D
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Adam
post Jan 25 2005, 09:18 PM
Post #28


Bullshit
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Member No.: 109



No, I'm a Stoic. I'm wearing a shirt. :D
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Caeleddin
post Jan 25 2005, 09:24 PM
Post #29


Cavalier Draconis Aethreal
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From: The Pimple on the Ass End of the World
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:lol:

Doesn't count. Now, if you were wearing a toga.....
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necrolyte
post Jan 26 2005, 08:20 AM
Post #30


I need a freakin life
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hmm-the image of eastern friendship that I've gotten through immigrant friends, people who have experienced asians, and through reading is that friendship tends to be much more formal, and it lacks the up-front, honest nature of Western friendship. I could be wrong however.
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Time is now: 15th May 2005 - 03:46 AM