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Lord Bitememan
post Sep 6 2004, 09:34 PM
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Yeah, go ahead, why not?
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Sephiroth
post Sep 7 2004, 12:01 AM
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What's up with the Exorcist?
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Wolfenstein
post Sep 7 2004, 12:22 AM
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Why does catholic church not take responsiblity for it's inaction during WWII?
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Esh
post Sep 7 2004, 12:26 AM
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Why does one have to confess to a priest? Can't you go directly to Big Guy Upstairs?
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Deus Ex Machina
post Sep 7 2004, 01:50 AM
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Why is the Pope infalliable?
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ro4444
post Sep 7 2004, 02:00 AM
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QUOTE(Deus Ex Machina @ Sep 6 2004, 09:50 PM)
Why is the Pope infalliable?
*



He's the religious representative of God on Earth?

This post has been edited by ro4444: Sep 7 2004, 02:01 AM
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Esh
post Sep 7 2004, 02:56 AM
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Still human...
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Lord Bitememan
post Sep 7 2004, 04:20 AM
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Okay, best answers I can give:

Sephiroth:
QUOTE
What's up with the Exorcist?


The rite of exorcism was created prior to the understanding of mental disorders and physical illness with psycological, or supposed psychological manifestations (porphyria, for example, is a physical illness with mental manifestations, often times epilepsy, which to primative audiences seemed to be a mental reaction, was perceived as such as well). The basis of it is in the New Testament, when Jesus casts demons out of afflicted individuals, and in the case of an epileptic undergoes a dialogue with the demons during which they beg to be cast into a herd of swine rather than sent back to hell. Primative minds did not know how to cope with mental illness, and equated it with demonic possession. Therefore, as it had a spiritual cause, they sought spiritual cures. Catholicism is not alone in this approach. Many pre-monotheistic societies practiced the release of evil spirits through the drilling of holes into heads. Of course, most modern day clergy reject the notion of exorcism, and scoff at those who continue to adhere to the idea.

Wolfy:
QUOTE
Why does catholic church not take responsiblity for it's inaction during WWII?


Probably for the same reasons the Bush administration does not take direct responsibility for its inability to locate WMDs in Iraq. They are trying to avoid embarassment. In the case of World War II, the issue is complicated. The Catholic Church was not comfortable with Hitler's actions in World War II. In fact, it was the intervention of a Catholic Bishop that ended the T-4 project (an attempt to mass-execute metally retarded individuals). The problem was geographical. The Vatican is located in Rome. Italy was allied with Germany. Nazi forces freely roamed Rome (cute hominyms, no?). Many of the "racially jewish" individuals rounded up by the Nazis were religiously Catholic converts, and priests attempted to solicit their release from Nazi officers. It didn't work. The church was, at this point, behaving like an institution and not like an ideological force. The church had assets, and they didn't want to see those assets destroyed and plundered, and its hierarchy didn't want to end up liquidated as enemies to the Nazi state (which Mussolini would have been powerless to stop). Is it an embarassment? Yes. Should they take responsibility for it? Yes. Are they alone in their inaction? Hell no. But at least, unlike Catholic France, the church didn't actively collaborate with the Nazis (see Vichy).

Esh:
QUOTE
Why does one have to confess to a priest? Can't you go directly to Big Guy Upstairs?


This is a tough question to answer, especially since it is one of the big issues that separates Catholics from Protestants. If you're looking for a strict theological answer, I'm afraid I don't have one for you. The nearest I know, is that simple confession to a priest without any remission on your part does not absolve you of your sins. Most priests will tell you that to be fully absolved of your sins, you must truly repent in your heart. The act of contrition a priest delivers you is a means of suffering on earth so as to avoid suffering in pergatory in the afterlife. Therefore, contrition as a theological tool is moot since the Catholic church distanced itself from belief in concepts like pergatory and limbo at Vatican II. The pragmatic reason for confession to a priest is to openly air those actions you have taken which are sinful as a means of getting it off your chest, and the act of contrition is a good deed to help feel better about yourself again. Is it kind of ideologically shallow? Yeah, probably, but if you want ideological purity, go be a Baptist, Catholicism today is about feeling good about your religion.

Dues:
QUOTE
Why is the Pope infalliable?


Another tough question for which I do not have an exact answer. The nearest I can tell you is from two new testament passages, which I shall paraphrase for lack of exact quotes. The first was a passage Jesus says to Peter, in which he says to Peter "You are the rock upon which I shall build my church." Since Peter is recognized by Catholics as the first Pope, that is sort fo the first part of this. The next, and anyone who's seen Dogma should recognize this, a portion of the Bible says "As you make it on earth, so shall I make it in heaven," something to that effect. The only one with the authority to speak for the Catholic church as a whole is the Pope. And, since God is unlikely to institute fallible policy in heaven, the result must be, by extrapolation, that God empowers the earthly Pope to infallible judgement on Earth. Now, of course, most Catholics don't really accept papal infallibility. Catholicism is a great religion of pompous doctrines which the faithful take certain liberties with in their interpretations. Papal infallibility is one of those. Is the Pope infallible? No, of course not. The pope is a human being, and is fallible. The church gets around the obvious problem of espousing such a doctrine through some hair-splitting. The Pope is, according to doctrine, only infallible when he speaks on behalf of the entire church. Two big outs arise from this. First, the Pope doesn't make a lot of doctrinal decisions, that is left to the cardinals. The cardinals are fallible, and so can make any damned fool decision they like. If they are reversed, there is no serious doctrinal crisis as they can be as wrong as they like. Second, many times when the pope speaks he doesn't speak for the Catholic church, he speaks for the Roman Catholic church, and as such he can be wrong. What's the difference? The Roman Catholics aren't the only Catholics under papal jurisdiction. There's also Greek Catholics, the Rusyns. When the Pope makes a pronouncement for the Roman Catholic church, he does so under the auspices of the Bishop of Rome, not as the Bishop of the Greek Catholics. It is only when he makes a pronouncement under the auspices of Pope of the Catholic church that infallibility applies, a thing he does rarely.
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Deus Ex Machina
post Sep 7 2004, 04:31 AM
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QUOTE(Lord Bitememan @ Sep 6 2004, 10:20 PM)
It is only when he makes a pronouncement under the auspices of Pope of the Catholic church that infallibility applies, a thing he does rarely.
*



I believe that it's only been done 4-5 times (I think 5), with the most recent dealing with abortion, iirc.
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Ferran
post Sep 7 2004, 04:33 AM
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Don't forget the Eastern Catholics!
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Lord Bitememan
post Sep 7 2004, 04:37 AM
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Ferran, I'm not forgetting about them, I mentioned the Greek Catholics:

1. Because they are one of the larger and more recognized subgroups of Catholicism.

2. Mentioning all the subgroups of Catholicism would be lengthy and time-consuming.

3. I dated a Rusyn.
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Smudge
post Sep 7 2004, 07:13 PM
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Please state the nature of the political emergency.
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Don't Communion Wafers stick to your mouth? They wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for that fact... Don't get me started on the Sacramental Wine...

I hadn't taken Communion in probably a decade, then at my Grandmother's funeral, I thought it would be appropriate. Wretched stuff...

Didn't know you were Catholic, Bitememan. Ever have to go to CCD?
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Lord Bitememan
post Sep 7 2004, 10:24 PM
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Smudge:

QUOTE
Don't Communion Wafers stick to your mouth?


Yes, they do, and they can turn your nice, early morning, only brushed because I didn't have time for breakfast before church, breath quite foul by the end of mass.

QUOTE
Ever have to go to CCD?


Yup. Till I went to Catholic school. Catholic school was followed not long after by renouncing the faith, then years of staunch atheism, then a gradually re-appreciation of religion.
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Lady Bitememan
post Sep 8 2004, 12:31 AM
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Why do Catholics pray to Mary? She isn't God. And Jesus himself said that nobody gets to heaven except through him. The way I see it, Mary aint going to do crap for you.
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Wolfenstein
post Sep 8 2004, 12:49 AM
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LordB,

Unlike most other institutions the Catholic Church does claim to be the moral representation of God on earth, thus their actions during WWII were hypocritical at best. If they do not take responsiblity for their actions during WWII, they cannot be considered a moral institution whatsoever, definatly not an institution sanctioned and blessed by God.
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Ferran
post Sep 8 2004, 02:14 AM
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QUOTE(Lady Bitememan @ Sep 7 2004, 05:31 PM)
Why do Catholics pray to Mary? She isn't God. And Jesus himself said that nobody gets to heaven except through him. The way I see it, Mary aint going to do crap for you.
*


I was catholic once too, so I want to field some questions to sound smart. :)

Typically, people pray to Mary for 2 reasons.

1) To ask her to pray for them -- that is, put in a good word for them with God or Jesus, or whomever they want. It's the same for when people pray to any saints, really, be it Matthias, Francis, Tobias, etc...

2) In regards to the actual Hail Mary, it's more of a way to show reverence. "Hail Mary, full of grace, the lord is with thee. Blessed are thee among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen." This prayer shows an example of both.
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Lord Bitememan
post Sep 8 2004, 02:50 AM
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Wolfy, the French government claims to be the representative of the best interests of the French people, yet in World War II the Vichy government collaborated with France's occupiers. There was a lot of hipocracy floating around during World War II, and the church wasn't alone in that regards.
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Dakyron
post Sep 8 2004, 03:21 AM
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Why do catholics have golden candlesticks and lavish churches when Jesus would much rather you had a modest dwelling and used your spare money to help others?
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zkajan
post Sep 8 2004, 03:55 AM
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Just how many gods are there in Catholicism? I'm under the impression that it's three.
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Wolfenstein
post Sep 8 2004, 04:01 AM
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LordB,

When was the fifth (I think) republic established?
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Ferran
post Sep 8 2004, 04:51 AM
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QUOTE(Dakyron @ Sep 7 2004, 08:21 PM)
Why do catholics have golden candlesticks and lavish churches when Jesus would much rather you had a modest dwelling and used your spare money to help others?
*


Because it looks nice.

QUOTE(zkajan @ Sep 7 2004, 08:55 PM)
Just how many gods are there in Catholicism?  I'm under the impression that it's three.
*


Nope, just one. Think of it as a Clover. there are three leaves, but they're all part of the same plant. There's God (Father), Jesus (Sun), and the Holy Spirit (no change here.). They're all the same god, but different manifestations/aspects. God is like the king of everything, Jesus is like the embassador of/to people, and the Holy Spirit is like god's little stick that he uses to prod things with. Iz the holy spirit that allowed the apostles to speak in tongues after Jesus was resurrected.
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Wolfenstein
post Sep 8 2004, 05:05 AM
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He lives on the sun? Does he only visit it during the night?
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Lady Bitememan
post Sep 8 2004, 03:25 PM
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QUOTE(zkajan @ Sep 8 2004, 03:55 AM)
Just how many gods are there in Catholicism?  I'm under the impression that it's three.
*

There is one god. He/she/or it is devided into three entities, the Father who created everything. Jesus the son, who is in fact the 100% human and 100% God, called also Emanuel, which means God with us. There is also the Holy Spirit, which is God's presence on Earth as it is today. God is therefore the trinity. One God, three different functions.
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Lady Bitememan
post Sep 8 2004, 03:44 PM
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QUOTE(Ferran @ Sep 8 2004, 02:14 AM)
I was catholic once too, so I want to field some questions to sound smart. :)

Typically, people pray to Mary for 2 reasons.

1) To ask her to pray for them -- that is, put in a good word for them with God or Jesus, or whomever they want. It's the same for when people pray to any saints, really, be it Matthias, Francis, Tobias, etc...

2) In regards to the actual Hail Mary, it's more of a way to show reverence. "Hail Mary, full of grace, the lord is with thee. Blessed are thee among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen." This prayer shows an example of both.
*

Of course that's fine. And the reasons you have given are correct in how it should be viewed. But I've noticed it getting to the point of worship. Why else would millions of people journey to other countries to see a potato chip that suposedly has the face of Mary on it? That looks to me like blatent disregaurd of the first comandment. "I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other gods before me." In many of these prayers to Mary there is not one single mention of God. Nowhere in the Bible does it say to pray to Mary. I also disagree with praying [to] the saints. Jesus, who is infact God, when posed with the question of how to pray never said anything about his mother. I'm sure if Mary were the way, the truth, and the light, Jesus wouldn't be necsessary in the first place. In the death and resurection of Jesus Christ the barrier between humanity and God has been broken. The curtain has been torn in two. (Biblical refrence) When Jesus assended into heaven we were given the gift of th Holy Spirit, a direct link between us and God. We can pray to God directly. I am thankfull to Mary for bearing the Christ Child, but she is NOT the focal point, nor are any saints.

Lord Bitememan has said I ought to post an ask a Lutheran thread, but I'm too lazy and would rather make my arguments here. Long live the reformation!!!!!!!!

This post has been edited by Lady Bitememan: Sep 8 2004, 03:44 PM
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Smudge
post Sep 8 2004, 07:42 PM
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Please state the nature of the political emergency.
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QUOTE(Wolfy @ Sep 7 2004, 10:05 PM)
He lives on the sun? Does he only visit it during the night?
*


Only during winter nights. Otherwise the sun is just too hot.
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The Poster Formerly Known as Y2A
post Sep 8 2004, 09:20 PM
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QUOTE(Lord Bitememan @ Sep 7 2004, 05:24 PM)
Till I went to Catholic school.  Catholic school was followed not long after by renouncing the faith, then years of staunch atheism, then a gradually re-appreciation of religion.
*



Catholic schools suck. I went to one from preschool through 8th grade. Damn that little suit they make us wear! Damn it to hell!
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xcr
post Sep 8 2004, 11:11 PM
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I went to catholic school for primary (the first year of regular school, after pre-school but before grade one- I mention this because the term, I understand, refers to all of grade p-6, or other than that, in some places). This is odd because I (and my entire family, including a couple reverends) am/ is protestant. After that I went to public school. I can explain the reason in the unlikely event that anyone actually cares.
As for prayer to Mary, the saints, and idol worship (worshiping the cross as if they were god etc), my impression is that some people who think of themselves as Christian are pagan at heart. (I do not mean this as an insult to such people).
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Ferran
post Sep 8 2004, 11:18 PM
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QUOTE(Lady Bitememan @ Sep 8 2004, 08:44 AM)
Of course that's fine. And the reasons you have given are correct in how it should be viewed. But I've noticed it getting to the point of worship. Why else would millions of people journey to other countries to see a potato chip that suposedly has the face of Mary on it? That looks to me like blatent disregaurd of the first comandment. "I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other gods before me." In many of these prayers to Mary there is not one single mention of God.

I think that if people pray to Mary directly, it could possibly be the human condition kicking in. Same with people who travel to see a divine potato chip (though, things like those are usually revered b/c some things are thought to have divine abilities like healing and whatnot). By Human condition, I mean that people probably feel more comfortable praying to someone who is 100% human, whereas Jesus is, but also god, and God is, well, god. It's a familiarity thing, I think. Of course, you're right -- I always thought of it as a blantant disregard of the first commandment, too, especially when you prayed to the other saints.

QUOTE(The Poster Formerly Known as Y2A @ Sep 8 2004, 02:20 PM)
Catholic schools suck. I went to one from preschool through 8th grade. Damn that little suit they make us wear! Damn it to hell!
*


You kids got suits!? Not fair.. we got these ugly little uniforms. Bleh.
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JackAfter6
post Sep 9 2004, 03:07 AM
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Why is the Catholic Church against birth control? I understand why they're against abortion, all religions should be against something like that, but what about condoms, and other devices and drugs which prevent conception? I know the bible says "be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth" but, in order to be fruitful, we must have available sustenance, and space. If we over-breed to the point where everyone is detrimentally affected, then while we are obeying the "multiply" part, we are not living up to the first part of that bible passage, "be fruitful," or the last part "and replenish the earth."


Genesis 1:28 Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth,

BTW Did you ever hear the Monty Python song - Every Sperm is Sacred -- the player that pops up is weird, just click the > play button in the upper left-hand corner.
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Lord Bitememan
post Sep 9 2004, 04:10 AM
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Jesus you people have a lot of questions (sorry God). Okay, in order of what I think hasn't been answered adequately:

Wolfy:

QUOTE
When was the fifth (I think) republic established?


And when was the Vatican II conference held? Look, if you want to attack an unbroken institution for its offenses in the past, you might as well join the camp demanding reparations for Slavery since the US government is the same unbroken one as the one that permitted it for close to a century. The fact is, we don't, in a pragmatic sense, because even if you hold the institution up to scrutiny today for the transgressions of yesteryear, you would find that even an uninterrupted institution is staffed by different people, and the ones responsible for these transgressions have been long dead. There is not one official in the Vatican today who was in power when World War II occurred. None of the curch officials today could ever give you an explaination that will make you happy in this issue, these were decisions made by immediate predecessors in terms of the most senior Vatican officials.

Lady:

QUOTE
Of course that's fine. And the reasons you have given are correct in how it should be viewed. But I've noticed it getting to the point of worship.


A Hail Mary is far short of worshipping Mary as a diety. Mary is honored as foremost among the saints, a special human being in the indisputable good graces of God who's intercession with him we ask for. It's not a matter of worship, it is a matter deferrence to God's favorite among women for all the help we can possibly get with our tarnished souls. Mary is not worshipped, Mary's status with God is invoked as an advocate for mortals.

QUOTE
Why else would millions of people journey to other countries to see a potato chip that suposedly has the face of Mary on it?


Because they are gullable morons darling. Some people take religion to the point of obsession, and manifest this in some very interesting ways. You know the type, the ones who don't make religion a part of their home so much as they eek out a home in the midst of their Jesus statues and portraits and little ceramic God nic-nacks EVERYWHERE! It's usually little middle-aged ladies who possess enough religious paraphenalia to confer salvation upon a Hollywood prostitute on a ride to the local Wal Mart (it was a humorous analogy, please don't pick that statement apart). These people don't so much need religious reminders of the ranks and hierarchies of who we pray to, they need a life. At any rate, their behavior is not reflective of the doctrinal positions of the Catholic church.

xcr:
QUOTE
As for prayer to Mary, the saints, and idol worship (worshiping the cross as if they were god etc), my impression is that some people who think of themselves as Christian are pagan at heart.


And iconoclasm certainly isn't a new concept in the world. However, I think it is perfectly reasonable for people to make phsyical representations of their God to help people take such an alien construct, as some gleaming ball of wisdom and power somewhere, and represent him in a physical sense in order to make the idea of God more concrete to the laity. Not everybody in the world is a scholar of Theological Philosophy. Some people in the world are brick-layers. And while it may rankle an ideological purist to see us make a few concessions to the poor brick-layer's less than razor sharp intellect to get him closer to God, I'm positive the almighty appreciates the effort and the man's soul is all the better for it.

Jack:
QUOTE
Why is the Catholic Church against birth control?


This is a construct based on some Biblical sources and some saintly interpretation. In the Book of Genesis Onan was struck down for the sin of spilling his semen on the ground. This was a reference to withdrawl, a method of birth control by which a man withdraws his penis from a womens vagina prior to ejaculation for the purposes of preventing pregnancy. For this transgression Onan was struck down. Based on this, and the Biblical verse you cited, and a little bit on the writings of certain saints (such as the notion of "Let form follow function," which since the function of sexual intercourse is for reproduction, so should the motivations for engaging in it), the church extrapolates that birth control is against the spirit of sexual intercourse, and intercourse should be reserved for reproductive purposes.

Again, thank goodness for the attitude of willful disregard for inconveniant pronouncements on the church.
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