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" width="8" height="8"/> Worse is yet to come..., New Iraqi abuse photos?
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necrolyte
post May 8 2004, 04:24 AM
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Rumsfeld said that worse photos may be coming out soon, depicting images that cannot even be passed as "loosening prisoners up," like rape, ect.

I think if the images that came out recently are bad, the images that Rumsfeld are describing will probably infuriate the Arab world beyond any sense of the imagination.

I find it hard to beleive that ordinary people can become simply so savage and barbaric. I suppose we have to remind ourselves of all those psychological experiments on abuse, but even then I question how anyone could go that far.
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Inhumanity
post May 8 2004, 09:52 AM
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The great irony is that Rumsfeld and Bush have described the abuse as "un-American" when in fact it is a characteristically American way to deal with inmates. Cruelty and abuse are widespread in the vast American prison system and many of those profiteering prison companies have been awarded contracts to handle the prisons in Iraq. The results are obvious.

"Readers are probably familiar with abominable prison conditions—rape, torture, restraint chairs, gladiator fights—from newspaper and magazine accounts. Prison and human rights activists might even have read some of the book’s essays. But what marks this collection as a whole is the first-rate discussion of these brutal circumstances and how these are the logical and normative result of incarceration itself."

!"evidence of the inhumanity and cruelty of the system: Death sentences result from nonexistent or malpracticed medical care. The mentally ill are warehoused and even healthy prisoners tend to fall prey to mental illness because of the insane and brutal conditions of prison’s bedlam [...] Prisoner rape—both rape by guards mainly of female prisoners, and by predatory male prisoners of other male prisoners—is frequently given free reign by guards."

And the most interesting bit:

"The psychological trauma and cruelty generated inside the prison system filters through into everything outside of it, deforming and undermining the whole of civil society. Prison society begins to serve as a model for other organizations."

[ http://www.monthlyreview.org/0204buck.htm ]

That female soldier portrayed in many of those abuse pictures shown in public and now charged with abuse and cruelty comes from one American small-town prison-employed community. The "hard line" is starting to take its toll on the American society and the neo-cons are blissfully ignorant of this. America is becoming increasingly crueler society where inmates have little or no human-value. Theyre treated as animals or as one web article stated - "furniture".
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KreeL
post May 8 2004, 03:24 PM
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The dude standing on the box with electrical wiring attached to arms and privates is not only being abused - he is being tortured.

Big difference.
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jcrow
post May 9 2004, 08:52 AM
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Yep, looks like things are about to get VERY real:

Graham, a veteran of the House Judiciary Clinton impeachment hearings in 1998, had his sound bites honed to a sharp, quotable edge: “I want to prepare the public. The worst is yet to come in terms of disturbing events.”

A few minutes later, Graham told a press conference, “We’re talking about rape and murder here, we’re not just talking abut giving people a humiliating experience, we’re talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges.”

This post has been edited by jcrow: May 9 2004, 08:59 AM
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Inhumanity
post May 10 2004, 07:01 AM
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I'd like to see how Ann Coulter can spin this. She thinks that Americans are "so good and so pure". Makes that claim kind of grotesque in the light of recent developements..
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Dragonspirit
post May 10 2004, 07:12 AM
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As with the previous charges, those culpable should be punished in accordance with the law that has jurisdiction over them.

My one qualm is why these photos are being leaked so slowly, dragged out over time. If you're going to show them, get it over with and come clean and show the whole damn thing. To drag this on over weeks seems politically motivated (and not just for the election, but for the war effort in general as the longer this takes the more it will turn people against it).

QUOTE
Makes that claim kind of grotesque in the light of recent developements..


This does not change the basic principles, culture or common standard that almost all Americans hold themselves to.

This is not just an exception, it is an extreme exception. Seeing as we've had mass murderers of the worst order before, if the claim was valid before it is not more "grotesque" now.
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Inhumanity
post May 10 2004, 07:51 AM
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QUOTE
his does not change the basic principles, culture or common standard that almost all Americans hold themselves to.


You speak as if these values are somehow unique and exclusive to Americans. I have a news flash for you: respecting your fellow human beings and their right to freedom and happiness are quite universal and they are respected even in Iraq - on a individual level. Furthermore, these values are generally accepted in theory, but it seems to me that US has just as much problems with violence, greed, selfishness, ignorance and hatred as any other nation. So I suggest to you and Coulter that its time to get off that high horse and start viewing your selves equals instead of superior to the rest of teh world.

QUOTE
This is not just an exception, it is an extreme exception.


Actually its not an exception in American prison system. Its not an exception even in the american military. Just look at the insane figures of civilian casualties already accumulated in Iraq. US will go to great lenghts to even to level city blocks to catch a few insurgents and killing tens and sometimes hundreds of civilians.. err, I mean causing collateral damage in the process. To me thats a sign of rather common indifference of an average soldier towards life in the enemy territory.

QUOTE
Seeing as we've had mass murderers of the worst order before, if the claim was valid before it is not more "grotesque" now.


I was kinda waiting for the first argument of "two wrongs making a right" ie. because Saddam was such a bad man it makes everything US does ok. But you are certainly right on the matter that conditions are no more grotesque in Iraq now, and they are probably better in some respects. But isnt it a delicious breed of moral irony that the human rights violations of Saddams regime that were used as the very excuse for the justification of invadign Iraq are now committed by American troops? I mean, wasnt the argument that US is "better", not "the same" as Saddams regime in morale sense? The irony is so immense that it makes my head spin.
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Fairlane
post May 10 2004, 12:18 PM
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Dragonspirit:

QUOTE
This is not just an exception, it is an extreme exception.


Hope so, but forgive me for not sharing your confidence. The key question of whether the breaking of prisoner morale is still part of official American policy still remains unanswered. And from what I understand, the Taguba report indicates that the practice of "creating conditions for successful exploitation of the internees" was promoted from high levels in the chain of command. If the guards who liked to take pictures of themselves at work have simply overstepped the mark while following a general instruction, then we are faced with the serious situation of this being the application of official policy and not a case of a few "bad apples" infecting the rest of the barrel.
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QWOT
post May 10 2004, 12:52 PM
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QUOTE (Dragonspirit @ May 10 2004, 12:12 AM)
My one qualm is why these photos are being leaked so slowly, dragged out over time. If you're going to show them, get it over with and come clean and show the whole damn thing. To drag this on over weeks seems politically motivated (and not just for the election, but for the war effort in general as the longer this takes the more it will turn people against it).

The issue with that accusation (calling this politically motivated) is that the source for the pictures is the military and the Administration itself. It's not like the press has free run of these prisons, so it's obviously not "the liberal media" setting this up.


QUOTE
This is not just an exception, it is an extreme exception. Seeing as we've had mass murderers of the worst order before, if the claim was valid before it is not more "grotesque" now.

Not necessarily true. Don't forget, the people in charge of the prison were disciplined and more are being investigated. The people at the top generally aren't subjected to administrative punishment for "just a few bad apples"; IIRC that's usually reserved for cases where the abuses are pretty widespread.
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marleyfrost
post May 10 2004, 01:28 PM
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Red Cross saw 'widespread abuse'

The mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners in US custody is not limited to isolated cases but forms part of a systematic pattern, the Red Cross has said. A spokesman said the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) had been warning the US about such cases for more than a year.

He was responding to the publication of parts of a leaked ICRC report.
The document concluded that abuse of Iraqi detainees was widespread and in some cases tantamount to torture.

The Red Cross mentions a number of "serious violations of humanitarian law", including beatings and prolonged solitary confinement.

The report says abuses have been committed at a number of facilities - not just Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, which is the focus of allegations against US soldiers.

Other facilities where mistreatment allegedly occurred include al-Baghdadi air base, Hubbania camp, Tikrit holding area, the ministry of defence and the presidential palace in Baghdad. The ICRC has a strict policy of never publicly releasing its reports into prison conditions.

But on Friday the Wall Street Journal quoted parts of the 24-page report. It alleges, among other things, that prisoners were kept naked in cells, in darkness and without facilities.

It says prisoners were beaten, in one case leading to death, and that soldiers fired on unarmed prisoners from watchtowers, killing some of them.

The report concludes there have been serious violations of the Geneva Conventions governing the treatment of prisoners of war.

The report says the ill-treatment was widely tolerated, especially with regard to extracting information from Iraqis.

Warnings

The report is at odds with the position of the US government, which insists that cases of abuses were isolated.

ICRC director of operations, Pierre Kraehenbuehl, disputed this.
"We were dealing here with a broad pattern, not individual acts. There was a pattern and a system," he said.

Mr Kraehenbuehl said that over the last year the Red Cross had repeatedly warned the Bush administration that the conditions at the Abu Ghraib needed changing.

"Our findings were discussed at different moments between March and November 2003, either in direct face-to-face conversations or in written interventions," he said.

He added that ICRC delegates in Iraq had also expressed concern about the conditions of prisoners held in UK-run detention centres.

The British newspaper the Daily Mirror has published photographs apparently
showing British troops abusing prisoners.


COALITION-RUN JAILS
8,000 prisoners held in 14 separate jails
Three main prisons - Abu Ghraib and Camp Cropper in west Baghdad; Camp Bucca, near Umm Qasr - hold inmates for extended periods
Almost all inmates are "security internees"- suspected of posing a threat to the coalition
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3694521.stm
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